Re: cypherpunks Digest, Vol 89, Issue 27

10 Nov 2020

      hi frank.  I don't understand what you're referring to.

But, man, that's a lot of posts to this list by me!  I sure don't want
to be filling the inboxes of everybody with spam ...  This guy who
subscribes with digests doesn't have as much opportunity to filter me
...

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 7:05 PM frank mcelligott  wrote:
...
She owes the atlanta hawks.....  Richer than Biden
-----Original Message-----
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To: cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org
Subject: cypherpunks Digest, Vol 89, Issue 27
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow (Karl)
   2. Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow
      (\0xDynamite)
   3. Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow (Karl)
   4. Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow (Karl)
   5. Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow (Karl)
   6. Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow
      (Zenaan Harkness)
   7. Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow
      (Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 17:46:04 -0500
From: Karl 
To: "Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0" 
Cc: cypherpunks 
Subject: Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 5:33 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 
wrote:
...
On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 15:24:30 -0500
Karl  wrote:
...
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 2:38 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 
wrote:
...
...
you need to identify people to make 'votes unalterable' - the
very opposite of anonimity.
I see you expressing some of the things you usually express.  I don't
believe your assumption here is true: you can make votes unalterable
and not identify people.  I'm not a cryptographer.
even if there's some crypto trick to do something that looks kinda
anonymous, you still have to identify which people are 'authorized' to
vote. Authority being of course the keyword here. In reality voting is a
wholly statist mechanism that takes for granted the 'authority' of the
state or other mafia and the absurd idea that mob majority rule has any
legitimacy at all.
Here, realize that voting is a crude analogy for _actual real
communication where we make decisions together_ omigod.
...
If we want to fix the current political problems it may be a good
idea to first identify them.
...
...
'underground' network using broadcast radio and NSA hardware?
And what would you do with your 'underground' network anyway? Use it
to talk to government agents?
...
Obviously, the answer is to finally talk with people who aren't
government agents.
Yeah, but how do you know who is an agent in an 'underground' and
(hopefully) anonymous network?
wasn't my joke funny?  my joke was so funny!  it was funny because we
can't talk about it =( so jokes are the only way =(  this is also a
half-joke =)
...
Anyway, an actually anonymous network may weaken the power of
govcorp somewhat but it's hardly a panacea. And what I was getting at is
that writing programs is pointless if people don't use the programs. So
even if you had a working design for say an anonymous network, it woud
still have to be 'deployed', which is something the users themselves would
have to do. Which in turn requires the users to be aware of various
technical and political issues, et cetera.
any mobile app business can relate that it is easy to get people to
run a program, and any blockchain developer can tell you that it is
easy to get them to keep doing it.
random idea from thousands:
app #1: "how to have fun sniffing your friends network traffic, seeing
and altering their secret conversations.  btw pay us $5 if you don't
want your friends messages randomly altered to alert that you are
watching them, with helpful information on community project app #2"
app #2: "cool anonymity network!  nobody can see you chat!"
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 16:48:26 -0600
From: "\\0xDynamite" 
To: Karl 
Cc: "Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0" , CypherPunks

Subject: Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Hmmm, I'm not sure what curl is supposed to do, when I tried it on
http rather than https, I got 301:  moved permanently.
When I tried known sites like mit.edu, I got a 302: moved permanently.
So what should it do?
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 4:04 PM Karl  wrote:
...
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 4:41 PM \0xDynamite 
wrote:
...
It works.  But try wiki.hackerspaces.org.
I don't understand what you mean by `it works`.  What do you think of
this terminal snippet?
```
$ curl -v https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/
* About to connect() to wiki.hackerspaces.org port 443 (#0)
*   Trying 212.12.52.48...
* Connected to wiki.hackerspaces.org (212.12.52.48) port 443 (#0)
* Initializing NSS with certpath: sql:/etc/pki/nssdb
*   CAfile: /etc/pki/tls/certs/ca-bundle.crt
  CApath: none
* SSL connection using TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384
* Server certificate:
*       subject: CN=wiki.hackspaces.org
*       start date: Oct 30 01:00:18 2020 GMT
*       expire date: Jan 28 01:00:18 2021 GMT
*       common name: wiki.hackspaces.org
*       issuer: CN=Let's Encrypt Authority X3,O=Let's Encrypt,C=US
...
GET / HTTP/1.1
User-Agent: curl/7.29.0
Host: wiki.hackerspaces.org
Accept: */*
< HTTP/1.1 504 Gateway Time-out
< Server: nginx
< Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2020 22:03:40 GMT
< Content-Type: text/html
< Content-Length: 160
< Connection: keep-alive
<
<html>
<head><title>504 Gateway Time-out</title></head>
<body>
<center><h1>504 Gateway Time-out</h1></center>
<hr><center>nginx</center>
</body>
</html>
* Connection #0 to host wiki.hackerspaces.org left intact
```
...
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 2:50 PM Karl  wrote:
...
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 3:22 PM \0xDynamite 
wrote:
...
...
> So which do you prefer:  accountability or anonymity?  The power
> goes
> both ways.  Pick one.
This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks
advocates of anonimity or something?
Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach you
something?
Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims.  If you want
one,
you don't get the other.  Get it?
...
> >         but all those things are controlled by political
> > power. 'information flow' is controlled by US corporations at
> > a global scale for instance.
>
> No these things are not just controlled by political power.
I mean, abstract mathematics is obviously NOT controlled
by political power, but all the infrastructure clearly is.
No, contrary to your anarcho-punk philosophy, all power is not held
in
politics.  Much of the hardware is controlled by base economic
forces
of simply wanting to get money.  Snowden is a sheep in whistleblower
clothing -- his "knowledge" of seekrit powers in tech devices is
bullshit.  There are also social forces driving things.
Unfortunately
the powers that run the world are at level 100 or so, while the
people
are generally at LVL 20 or less, so they get mystified, used,
confused, and paranoid.   You've fallen under it because you don't
have mastery of the tech.  That's all.  Get a degree and become a
real
expert or learn by yourself by following paths online, like the one
I
put on hackerspaces.org (OneTruePath).  OR, get this, simply be
504 Gateway Error over here, and not on archive.org .
...
respectful to other people who HAVE done this work and learn
something
from THEM.
Until then, you're just a loudmouth.
...
Point being, cryptography by itself will get you nowhere,
AND cryptography is a pretty toxic tool in the hands of the
political powers that control its practical application.
Cryptography by itself *has* gotten us nowhere, because nothing we
REALLY wanted to do required going against the law.  And what is it
that we REALLY want to do?  (hmm, free society, creative culture,
radical love, ....)
\0xD
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 17:50:51 -0500
From: Karl 
To: "\\0xDynamite" 
Cc: "Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0" , CypherPunks

Subject: Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 5:37 PM \0xDynamite 
wrote:
...
...
...
Really?  I know how to find philes I want -- if I need them.  Do you?
what files are you talking about?  the_bible.pdf?
Lolz, that one's legal to copy, for the most part.  Why did you make a
personal attack?  Are you unable to use reason alone?
personal attacks is how punk-stasi is most free to communicate.  i
don't believe they are meant personally.
...
...
...
...
This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks
advocates of anonimity or something?
Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach you
something?
Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims.  If you want one,
you don't get the other.  Get it?
dude. What do you think you're teaching me, exactly? *I* pointed
out *first* that 'accountable' voting and anonimity are at odds. Learn 2
read.
Regardless of your anarchist philosophy, you seek leaders.  Perhaps
because deep in your DNA you know these questions were already
answered.  So, if you have leaders, you'll want accountability.
you can even have accountability without leaders!
re: anonymity: for example we could reduce the network time allocated
to behaviors that result in harm to a consensus algorithm, challenging
people who desire to transmit such traffic, to support efforts to
improve that algorithm in some way.
...
...
...
No, contrary to your anarcho-punk philosophy, all power is not held in
politics.  Much of the hardware is controlled by base economic forces
of simply wanting to get money.
all of the hardware is manufactured by corporations that are
just arms of the government. So like I said, at the root there's only
political power.
Corps are not just arms of the government, unless you want to talk
about octopus-type arms of the all-seeing-eye.  In the octopus, each
arm is an individual and acts separately, but they share at least some
common desire or core.  It could be survival in the case of America,
at this point.
to add some third viewpoint, some people describe strong coercive
power as 'the real government'
...
...
...
Snowden is a sheep in whistleblower clothing -- his "knowledge" of
seekrit powers in tech devices is  bullshit.
not sure how snowden got into the picture? Oh sorry yeah. You're
ranting.
You're not sure.  That's a good start.
...
...
You've fallen under it because you don't have mastery of the tech.
wut
The response of the nubile who's been caught, wanting to know how I
can know something that you never revealed.
...
...
Get a degree and become a real expert or learn by yourself by
following paths online
what do you want me to learn, exactly?
Some real computer science, or at least some programming, maybe math.
...
...
simply be respectful to other people who HAVE done this work
LMAO! What 'work' are you talking about
Mastering the tech that you say is controlled by governments, duh.
...
...
Until then, you're just a loudmouth.
a jew-fascist like you shouldn't badmouth his betters. Your
knowledge of political philosophy is a lot worse than non-existent. Your
knowledge of 'tech' is prolly just as bad.
You're just being a loudmouth.  Either have some real Truth, skills,
or try somewhere else than cypherpunks to get relevance.
...
...
Cryptography by itself *has* gotten us nowhere, because nothing we
REALLY wanted to do required going against the law.
what 'law' are you talking about here?
...
And what is it  that we REALLY want to do?  (hmm, free society,
creative culture,
radical love)
those things are obviously against all government laws. So which
law is this law you mentioned?
Tell me, punk, is the law more powerful than Man?
Marxos
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 17:52:01 -0500
From: Karl 
To: "\\0xDynamite" 
Cc: "Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0" , CypherPunks

Subject: Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 5:41 PM \0xDynamite 
wrote:
...
...
...
...
...
So which do you prefer:  accountability or anonymity?  The power
goes
both ways.  Pick one.
This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks
advocates of anonimity or something?
Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach you
something?
Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims.  If you want one,
you don't get the other.  Get it?
We were mind controlled to take over the world, but we have learned to
resist.
Aims, like anonymity and accountability, are not contrary.  They all
can be accomplished together.
You're probably talking about the election and the voting process.  I
was speaking generally.
The only law is time, who holds no sides.
...
...
Casting aims as contrary was a way to reduce the power of the masses.
You're right.  In theory you could achieve both with a second layer, a
layer of indirection.  Asking for ID to get into the voting booth,
which just has to keep track that you haven't voted already and
separate the act of voting, which can be anonymized by concealed
ballots.
\0xD
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 17:56:52 -0500
From: Karl 
To: "\\0xDynamite" 
Cc: "Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0" , CypherPunks

Subject: Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Curl performs an HTTP request, like a web browser does as the first
thing when you visit a website.  I didn't know you were unfamiliar
with curl or I wouldn't have pasted the output to you.  The output
includes details that would help the administrator of
wiki.hackerspaces.org relate around the issue I experience.  But if
you can paste your output, it would help me understand what is going
on, myself, and others on the list too if they have interest.
301 and 302 mean the url is forwarding you somewhere else.  It should
say where else it is forwarding you to, notably in the `Location: `
header if you pass `-v`.  Pass `-L` to automatically follow those
redirects.
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 5:48 PM \0xDynamite 
wrote:
...
Hmmm, I'm not sure what curl is supposed to do, when I tried it on
http rather than https, I got 301:  moved permanently.
When I tried known sites like mit.edu, I got a 302: moved permanently.
So what should it do?
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 4:04 PM Karl  wrote:
...
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 4:41 PM \0xDynamite 
wrote:
...
It works.  But try wiki.hackerspaces.org.
I don't understand what you mean by `it works`.  What do you think of
this terminal snippet?
```
$ curl -v https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/
* About to connect() to wiki.hackerspaces.org port 443 (#0)
*   Trying 212.12.52.48...
* Connected to wiki.hackerspaces.org (212.12.52.48) port 443 (#0)
* Initializing NSS with certpath: sql:/etc/pki/nssdb
*   CAfile: /etc/pki/tls/certs/ca-bundle.crt
  CApath: none
* SSL connection using TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384
* Server certificate:
*       subject: CN=wiki.hackspaces.org
*       start date: Oct 30 01:00:18 2020 GMT
*       expire date: Jan 28 01:00:18 2021 GMT
*       common name: wiki.hackspaces.org
*       issuer: CN=Let's Encrypt Authority X3,O=Let's Encrypt,C=US
...
GET / HTTP/1.1
User-Agent: curl/7.29.0
Host: wiki.hackerspaces.org
Accept: */*
< HTTP/1.1 504 Gateway Time-out
< Server: nginx
< Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2020 22:03:40 GMT
< Content-Type: text/html
< Content-Length: 160
< Connection: keep-alive
<
<html>
<head><title>504 Gateway Time-out</title></head>
<body>
<center><h1>504 Gateway Time-out</h1></center>
<hr><center>nginx</center>
</body>
</html>
* Connection #0 to host wiki.hackerspaces.org left intact
```
...
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 2:50 PM Karl  wrote:
...
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 3:22 PM \0xDynamite
 wrote:
...
> > So which do you prefer:  accountability or anonymity?  The
> > power goes
> > both ways.  Pick one.
>
>         This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't
> cypherpunks advocates of anonimity or something?
Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach
you something?
Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims.  If you want
one,
you don't get the other.  Get it?
> > >         but all those things are controlled by political
> > > power. 'information flow' is controlled by US corporations
> > > at a global scale for instance.
> >
> > No these things are not just controlled by political power.
>
>         I mean, abstract mathematics is obviously NOT controlled
> by political power, but all the infrastructure clearly is.
No, contrary to your anarcho-punk philosophy, all power is not
held in
politics.  Much of the hardware is controlled by base economic
forces
of simply wanting to get money.  Snowden is a sheep in
whistleblower
clothing -- his "knowledge" of seekrit powers in tech devices is
bullshit.  There are also social forces driving things.
Unfortunately
the powers that run the world are at level 100 or so, while the
people
are generally at LVL 20 or less, so they get mystified, used,
confused, and paranoid.   You've fallen under it because you don't
have mastery of the tech.  That's all.  Get a degree and become a
real
expert or learn by yourself by following paths online, like the
one I
put on hackerspaces.org (OneTruePath).  OR, get this, simply be
504 Gateway Error over here, and not on archive.org .
...
respectful to other people who HAVE done this work and learn
something
from THEM.
Until then, you're just a loudmouth.
>         Point being, cryptography by itself will get you
> nowhere, AND cryptography is a pretty toxic tool in the hands of
> the political powers that control its practical application.
Cryptography by itself *has* gotten us nowhere, because nothing we
REALLY wanted to do required going against the law.  And what is
it
that we REALLY want to do?  (hmm, free society, creative culture,
radical love, ....)
\0xD
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 09:58:31 +1100
From: Zenaan Harkness 
To: cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org
Subject: Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow
Message-ID: <20201109225831.GB1391165@eye.freedbms.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Mon, Nov 09, 2020 at 01:59:51PM -0500, Karl wrote:
...
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 1:40 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 
wrote:
...
On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 05:52:02 -0500
Karl  wrote:
...
Many of us have ways to make the world right,
but so long as our actions can be predicted, it doesn't seem easy to
pursue them, and pursuing them may have consequences.
I don't think prediction is the problem but numbers. If enough
people want to burn down amazon and google, the 'prediction' won't stop
them.
...
Does anyone have advice on what software developers can do during this
time, to help the situation?
how can computer programers fix a political problem?
I stand by blockchain technologies that prevent the isolation of
communities and provide immutable public records.  Cryptography can
make votes unalterable,
Cryptography unfortunately can't stop the dead from voting.
...
dialogue unhidable.  Math could show clear
statistics of what influences behavior and information flow, and for
whom.
But computer programers share with you the malady that problems are
for 'fixing'.
...
...
Personally, I have no idea how to communicate with people who refuse
to harm anyone, to work on solutions with them.
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 20:03:21 -0300
From: "Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0" 
To: 
Subject: Re: How Do We Escape Computer Controlled Propaganda Flow
Message-ID: <20201109230357.324F411C036D@pglaf.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 16:36:14 -0600
"\\0xDynamite"  wrote:
...
...
...
Really?  I know how to find philes I want -- if I need them.  Do you?
what files are you talking about?  the_bible.pdf?
Lolz, that one's legal to copy,
'legal' according to whom? Oh yeah 'legal' according to your government
masters.
...
for the most part.  Why did you make a
personal attack?  Are you unable to use reason alone?
I can pretty well call you an idiot while shredding to pieces your nonsense.
The 'personal attack' is just a side note, snowflake. Not to mention where
is the personal attack, anyway? You are an evil theocratic nutcase.
...
...
...
...
This is the cypherpunks mailing list? Weren't cypherpunks
advocates of anonimity or something?
Geez man, can't you pick up on it when someone's trying to teach you
something?
Anonymity and accountability are two contrary aims.  If you want one,
you don't get the other.  Get it?
dude. What do you think you're teaching me, exactly? *I* pointed
out *first* that 'accountable' voting and anonimity are at odds. Learn 2
read.
Regardless of your anarchist philosophy, you seek leaders.
What the fuck are you taking about, son. Oh, you're changing the subject
after realizing that you were 'teaching' me the very same thing *I*
mentioned first.
...
Perhaps
because deep in your DNA you know these questions were already
answered.  So, if you have leaders, you'll want accountability.
what - the fuck - are you talking about. I know that the problem is the
cowardly fucktards like you, your bible and your 'leaders', and I don't
'want leaders'.
...
...
...
No, contrary to your anarcho-punk philosophy, all power is not held in
politics.  Much of the hardware is controlled by base economic forces
of simply wanting to get money.
all of the hardware is manufactured by corporations that are
just arms of the government. So like I said, at the root there's only
political power.
Corps are not just arms of the government,
of course they are.
...
unless you want to talk about octopus-type arms of the all-seeing-eye.  In
the octopus, each
arm is an individual and acts separately, but they share at least some
common desire or core.  It could be survival in the case of America,
at this point.
lawl. Are you drunk? Or is that your 'religious' insanity showing again?
...
...
...
Snowden is a sheep in whistleblower clothing -- his "knowledge" of
seekrit powers in tech devices is  bullshit.
not sure how snowden got into the picture? Oh sorry yeah. You're
ranting.
You're not sure.  That's a good start.
I was mocking you. "I'm not sure" meant "what the fuck has snowden got to do
with anything".
...
...
...
You've fallen under it because you don't have mastery of the tech.
wut
The response of the nubile who's been caught, wanting to know how I
can know something that you never revealed.
WUT - "wut" means what-are-you-talking-about - again.
So far you've shown you don't know what you're talking about. As always. So
I'm anything but a 'surprised nubile'.
...
...
...
Get a degree and become a real expert or learn by yourself by
following paths online
what do you want me to learn, exactly?
Some real computer science, or at least some programming, maybe math.
I know c++, python and assembler among other languages. Is that enough? Oh
wait, knowing how to program computers has fuck to do with any real solution
to political problems, go figure.
...
...
...
simply be respectful to other people who HAVE done this work
LMAO! What 'work' are you talking about
Mastering the tech that you say is controlled by governments, duh.
OK, you are just another government agent parroting the lie that fucktards
are 'free' because they (you) made a website with more government propaganda
and know how to 'program' some javashit malware.
...
...
...
Until then, you're just a loudmouth.
a jew-fascist like you shouldn't badmouth his betters. Your
knowledge of political philosophy is a lot worse than non-existent. Your
knowledge of 'tech' is prolly just as bad.
You're just being a loudmouth.  Either have some real Truth, skills,
or try somewhere else than cypherpunks to get relevance.
uh oh. I think calling out governmetn assholes like you is a relevant thing
for 'cypherpunks'.
...
...
...
Cryptography by itself *has* gotten us nowhere, because nothing we
REALLY wanted to do required going against the law.
what 'law' are you talking about here?
...
And what is it  that we REALLY want to do?  (hmm, free society,
creative culture,
radical love)
those things are obviously against all government laws. So which
law is this law you mentioned?
Tell me, punk, is the law more powerful than Man?
again, what nonsense are you babbling. Answer what law were you talking
about. You can't answer because you can't even keep track of your ignorant,
fascist rants.
Instead of 'learning' how to 'program' a stupid ARPANET WEBSITE you should
go to the library and learn political philosophy, for starters.
...
Marxos
------------------------------
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