On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 04:49:18AM -0000, xorcist@sigaint.org wrote:
I staked out a stronger position than I actually hold, a hopefully forgivable mistake in response to Zenaan's black-and-white "Russia good, US evil" propagandizing. Thanks for the thoughtful response.
OK, I can understand that.
Yes, there is a lot of ideological stuff like that here, it seems. I look at geopolitics from a merely strategic point of view,
Another moral relativist?
No.
So you say. Your words tell a bluntly different story. Since you say in one breath you are not a moral relativist, and in the next you say "I try to leave moralizing, ideology, and even my own opinion, out of it", you either cannot hold a consistent thought, or you speak with such contortions you betray a deep compromise within yourself.
Moral relativists believe all moral codes of behavior are subjective, and intrinsically equivalent, and cannot be judged nor ranked. I hold no such opinion.
Ok, so you can define it that way, and again, you say this does not apply to you. Let's continue ...
If really pressed, I suppose I would say that I think that moral codes are, at their core, ..illusions
Well dang! Straight off the bat as we say - your position "just ain't cricket" :)
.. but that isn't really the right word. I guess the word I'm looking for is "artifacts." Yes, I like that. Artifacts in the sense that morality appears due to a fundamental deficiency in our way of observing and thinking about the world: the difficulty in appreciating "the big picture." And the possibility for the double entendre in terms of an object made by a human being, and typically old and culturally normative, tickles my fancy for word play. And such artifacts can be disturbingly grotesque, and immensely beautiful. Yes. I think "artifact" is the perfect, actually.
If only Americans could actually stick to tickling their own "fancies". Alas, the CIA and MIC types run around the world ticking their fancy on other people's deaths, and on the overthrow of so many nations to replace their governments, all the while proclaiming the illusion to the world that "oh it was just a local revolution - don't bother yourself with the details now..." And you Americans then collectively swoop in, seize half the national currency on the cheap whilst selling "protection" in the form of USA military occupation, and double dip with "reconstruction" and "investment" contracts, locking up 95%+ of that nation's wealth. Some of the people of that nation get some jobs, a very few get cushy positions in the new national "reserve bank" and other institutions that the overlord puts in place. Yes, holding the position that morality be nothing but an "artifact" of the beastial nature that is "human", the almighty alphas prevailing over the majority betas, is the reason the USA empire has lost even the perception of having a moral standing, and is the foundation for the tyranny that the USA inflicts on the world. And from your TLA/USA point of view, this is business as usual. You know, the "big picture of the world" is so difficult for mere betas to comprehend, and besides, their morality is nothing but artifacts of their hopeless state of being betas, a mere clamouring for some skerrick of justice in the face of the natural born alphas. "Why, it's amazing I had not thought of that before myself."
There is behavior.
Nothing but mammals. Except for those rare superior alphas.
Some of it is destructive, some of it is beneficial. The difficulty is that people believe they can somehow be destructive to others, while benefiting themselves.
Not only do they believe so, they actually do benefit. Are you trying to say the slave owners of the American South did not actually benefit from their slave possessions? Tut tut... I expect better logic or you'll fail the class.
They believe this is true, because they are unable to see the big picture.
I guess they're barely betas then, these "ones" you speak of?
It is not possible to harm someone else, without harming oneself;
and again..
try as you might, be as cunning as you dare, it is futile.
Those Made in the USA bullets and bombs killing so many brown people and poor people in the world are really not benefitting the bullet and bomb manufacturers now? How touching ... how, truly enlightened ! I guess you must be Rosicrucian?
When one sees this,
I -believe-! I -see- the light! I am -saved- from the bullets, since it's really just the blokes pulling the triggers that are getting hurt at the same time I die. My life ends, but it's ultimately a good cause - to -teach- the one (the USA, CIA, NSA, DIA, DOD, USA MIC) pulling the trigger of the utter futility of pulling that trigger, the total lack of benefit to him, and the harm he causes himself whilst he kills me. Gee, thanks xorcist. I was really confused there about America's bullets and bombs for a bit, but you've really set me straight on all that... ...such a weight off my shoulders.
one sees morality for what it is: a set of arbitrary, and usually senseless delusional notions,
"Morality, just a relativistic, arbitrary notion invented by betas." Ahh, such a calm centeredness overcomes me from your enlightened wisdom, oh wise one!
needed to compensate for a basic futility that people persist in engaging in.
All those futile alphas futilely killing all those futile betas who futilely invent some arbitrary notions of morality, right and wrong, good and bad, to justify their untimely death at the hands of the inherently, fatalistically powerful and superior alphas. You know xorcist, thanks to you, I've really got this whole life and reality thing all worked out now... it's SUCH a relief!
Morality is the marriage of a delusion, to a futility.
And I'm also SO relieved to hear your "bigger picture" that us betas find so hard to begin to grasp, let alone even conceive of! Dunno where us betas would be without your wise alpha counsel! We are very grateful.
The irony
I'm listening carefully and closely now...
is that once perceived, the only sensible way to behave - regardless of the outcome, is to try to benefit as many people as possible, in all circumstances.
Ahh, so now that we betas have a clear understanding that our sufferance at the hands of the superior race of alphas is nothing but a self delusion of "morality" arising from our self induced marriage of our delusion to our futilities, we can get on with respecting the wise alphas and dutifully go about our lives putting down our guns and setting aside our futile concepts of right and wrong, and benefit as many as possible with our actions, especially benefitting those wise and understanding alphas who have a solid grasp of the "big picture". I'm really getting this program xorcist - truly enlightening!
A way of acting that most people would consider quite moral.
Yes, we shall set aside any rebellious, because that does not benefit the maximum number of people. We shall ne'er dare speak of overthrow of governments with which you are closely associated. And especially we shall not talk about systems of revolt against the almighty alphas and how to systemically shift the game. And we shall always be public in our strategic thinking and discussions to give the alphas the maximum possibility of bringing down their CIA et all operatives to support our programs for fundamental system change. Because we must, of course, benefit as many people as possible with every action, and always act proper and politically correctly.
It is similar, I think, to the people who get into the free will/determinism thing, and find that by really believing that their actions are pre-determined, they become 'courageous' enough to be spontaneous, and therefore, free.
"Fatalism is freedom". Yes xorcist, the Ministry of Truth is proud of you.
So, there is that. But that isn't even what I meant.
Oh we appreciate your efforts Massa.
What I meant is, I do not believe the influential decision makers and policy makers make a great concern for applying a moral code when making geopolitical decisions. Rather, they define aims, and try to find strategies to meet those aims.
Just as you recommend above. Since you're "not a moral relativist" or something, right, got it!
Some strategies they may reject, perhaps even on moral grounds, and will then pursue some other strategy. But, when there is only ONE workable strategy, regardless of the morality of it, it will get put in place. Because the important aspect is not morality, it is positioning.
Thus, evil. Thank you for clarifying the American position and systemic problem. For a while there you had me going - I thought you were disagreeing with me.
Therefore, in my analysis of geopolitical happenings, I try to leave moralizing, ideology, and even my own opinion, out of it.. or at least relegate it to a side bar, or after thought. As it has no bearing on "that world" it is superfluous, and even misleading, in analyzing it.
Yep, no point bringing right and wrong into geopolitical discussions. That would go right against the grain! Totally useless! You're onto it xorcist - the America empire is proud to have you in such wholehearted support. Really a medal should be coming your way. I'll recommend that to Hillary Clinton next time I'm chatting with her - she's evidently your type.
It leads to ideological propaganda, and so on.
Oh my god! You are SO right! All that discussion, or worse even, all that BELIEF in right and wrong, leads to just so much propaganda! My god, that's shocking! I'd never thought of it that way before. xorcist, you're a champion today. You are really lifting the discussion to a plane of spiritual enlightenment I'd not even dreamt of!! You are The Man!
Such things make it too easy to generalize about "The Americans" or "The Russians" .. speaking of cultures, rather than the powerful few who actually do this stuff.
May be you should stop generalising then? Just a thought... you wouldn't want to perpetrate the problems of your own propaganda now would you? (Oh don't get me wrong, we betas all bow in unison to "the powerful few" who "actually do this stuff" - and we're -grateful- for the opportunity to bow down, lord Massa!)
If you think Putin spends a great deal of time thinking of "combating the evil of the West" you may want to reconsider. I would suspect that Putin spends his time analyzing how to counter the aims of rival nations. He thinks of it, just in those terms.
What Putin thinks seems to be a bit of an obsession of yours. You might want to look at that... Anyway, I take it you believe Putin is a calculating sociopath. Glad to hear your enlightened objective, not-coloured-by-moral-relitvism "opinion". I bow low, Massa!