If you Bcc or Cc to too many recipients some email relay server somewhere, with an op who never ever responds to individuals' requests for assistance, is gonna black-hole ya.

Rr

On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 03:41:34PM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> [Resending four replies in one to participants bcc uncensored cypherpunks,
> as censorship on an already moderator approved, thus explicitly
> moderator solicited,
> variety thread where moderator already censored the queue twice
> resent, and moderator
> approved questions by posters in thread were left unanswered and
> silently ignored
> via moderators censorship... is hypocritical, especially so for topics
> within charter...
> "technical, social, political, security, privacy, legal, and
> multinational aspects of
> cryptosystems". Cheers all and enjoy the sunlight, tis all.]
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Benjamin Kreuter <brk7bx@virginia.edu> wrote:
> > On Mon, 2018-08-06 at 14:11 +0800, jamesd@echeque.com wrote:
>
> > As others have asked, what is the problem we want to solve?  The
> > beginning of this thread was a proposal that the problem is that the
> > government might target an activist group's finances.  Now it sounds
> > like you are talking about the government trying to attack the entire
> > payment system.
>
> That is indeed a valid problem.
> Among many others in many sectors and applications.
>
> >> A crypto currency needs to be centerless - it needs to able to
> >> survive the seizure of key servers by a hostile powerful party.
>
> True, a properly decentralized cryptocurrency has no such
> seizable / sueable servers.
>
> Decentralization is under attack in more ways than most people
> realize, not just by the purposeful noise deluge of junk / centralized
> coins, tokens, ico's... but also by very insidious methods.
> As an example...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYHFrf5ci_g
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BZoKH-hX_o
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKYEQVPklLI
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bitcoin+censorship
> https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/6rxw7k/informative_btc_vs_bch_articles/dl8v4lp/
>
> Whether you're a user, code / crypto developer, business,
> whatever... you need to understand these things and be able
> to spot them, call them out, and exchange and adopt away
> from them once they happen. In the cryptocurrency space,
> there is no birthright, let alone against treason, or any other
> lesser offense.
>
> A bit more from the series...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOZaLbUUZUs
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgts1qb0hLY
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGrUOLsC9cw
>
> > Get back to me when the Internet itself cannot be shut down by the
> > government.
>
> For so long as free speech, encryption, and overlay networks exist,
> cryptocurrency and the internet cannot be shutdown. If you accept,
> either personally or as a populace, the shutting of your connection
> and or the disablement of your crypto, for mere agnostic tool use,
> and for no provable reason otherwise, then you're fucked.
> If the Four Hoursemen of the Infocalypse didn't do it already, then the
> only thing left is a bonafide threat to the existance of government itself...
> to its taxes collected by force. Once people worldwide start to figure out
> they can bypass the redundancy, inefficiency, non choice, war, etc of
> governments by moving their transactions onto the encrypted blockchain
> networks... that's the last game... you either sheeple out forever into a
> questionable existance, or make your stand. Don't be a sheeple..
>
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=banks+fear+bitcoin
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=governments+fear+bitcoin
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 6:05 PM, John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
> > In article <CAD2Ti29oru2WUyQ01gr+UL1M-cAAvj0ZuVraPGeULnYz7TqtvQ@mail.gmail.com>,
> > grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Cryptocurrency value moved every month is 30x paypal's and growing.
> >> Ten more years and those 200 million users will be on cryptocurrency.
> >
> > Paypal's current transaction volume is about $40 billion/month,
> > growing at a modest rate.  Can you tell us where you get your number
> > of $1.2 trillion/month for cryptocurrencies?
>
> > https://www.statista.com/statistics/277841/paypals-total-payment-volume/
>
> That should have been ~3x (2.7x) coming from just the BTC value volume
> moved, and ~385B$/mo for the entire cryptocurrency space, both using
> today's coinmarketcap rates.
>
> Paypal is also doing ~295 tx/s, which might just be eclipsed by
> even early iterations of below stress work with a single cryptocurrency
> (even more when summing the current capabilities of top 10
> decentralized cryptos for example representing and carrying
> the market space for tx / tps)...
>
> https://stresstestbitcoin.cash/
>
> ~25.6M tx/d will beat Paypal, with perhaps only 33% of that needed
> to make news waves.
>
> Paypal claims ~245M "active" users, or 3.2% of world pop, which
> smells a little fishy. BTC alone has ~55M utxo's, consolidated
> down into owned wallets at recent oppurtunity from peak of ~68M,
> some study estimates try taking that down further to approx body count.
> Cryptocurrency has no worries there either, and again, starts
> making waves before then.
>
> And Paypal has never made the world's daily syndicated TV
> and print news like cryptocurrency has.
>
> Regardless of which sources you choose, cryptocurrency
> is close at the heels of Paypal, already biting off chunks in
> some areas, including philosophical ones. Expect Paypal to
> be completely eclipsed by cryptocurrency in five years or less.
>
>
>
> >>> If an issuer doesn't redeem a bill
> >>> what recourse do you have other than to denounce him?
>
> >> Cryptocurrency... you either have the keys and value or you don't.
>
> > I don't want a wallet hash
>
> That's smart, because whoever told you you could
> spend such a construct is a fraud.
>
> > these were bills redeemable in real assets.
> > I want my kilo of platinum or whatever.
> > What's my recourse when the platinum doesn't show up?
>
> Precisely, such bills are a risk with variable recourse.
>
> "Bills of exchange by different issuers"
>
> The blockchain takes care of issues with "issuers" "bills" and
> reputation, you either have the confirmed spend or you don't,
> and you're stupid if you walk off before you do.
> And the market takes care what other "assets" one can
> get in "exchange" for the UTXO's you're about to spend.
> You're of course free to make and sign whatever other
> contracts / bills you want, call them private pegs / tethers
> if it makes you happy, and accept all their risks.
> This is basically arguing volatility again, and what cryptocurrency
> is saying, Neo, is that you won't need to.
>
> [1] Those who argue volatility against decentralized cryptocurrency
> shouldn't do so as what they're saying is they...
> - really want centralized regulated fiat equivalents
> - clearly don't get that *of course* by their very nature decentralized
> cryptocurrencies are *expected* to be "volatile" early on.
> This is an innate feature, not a bug.
>
>
> But hey while people are on the "volatility" tip, look at all the
> other *volatile* central regulated fiats out there both new and old...
> https://wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_date_of_formation
> https://wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_currencies
>
> And lots of other reasons you might not want them...
> https://wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_sovereign_states
> https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_historical_geopolitical_changes
>
> All that pegging, tethering, backing, and government guns people say
> gives [nonvolatile] value... doesn't seem to be doing a very good job of it.
>
> Perhaps it's time the world, and you, tries something truly different,
> for once, in like thousands of years, of not doing so, lol.
>
> It's out there, and could be in your wallet today,
> and spent in some equitable trade tomorrow.
>
>
>
> # others
> > Obviously, you can be cut off by governments, payment processors,
> > exchanges, [etc list of formal entities]
>
> Nowhere in those blurbs was the direct P2P functionality of decentralized
> cryptocurrencies  mentioned... much harder to cut that off without nuking
> the underlying [sneaker] nets, the difficulty of that mentioned in
> another thread.
>
> > Reputation is entirely based upon non-repudiation, and liability (provably
> > having sufficient real assets to cover their outstanding balance).
> > Blockchain currency doesn't have either of those properties.
>
> Neither does fiat. Try and invent them on top of them
> if you want.
>
> > Manafort is also learning
>
> About decentralized cryptocurrencies, and the gold watch,
> along with the rest of the world's people.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 7:24 PM, Bill Frantz <frantz@pwpconsult.com> wrote:
> > OK, I can't resist any longer. Let's look at some payment and store of value
> > systems:
>
> Ok...
>
> > Gold metal:
>
> > Terrible for electronic payment.
>
> Transferring electronic stock in GLD, or other forms of gold securities,
> works fine, is slow and a lot of paperwork, but most would be terribly
> happy to receive it instead of being stiffed.
>
> > Likely to be accepted anywhere fiat currencies are weak.
>
> Like Venezuela, Greece, Zimbabwe, etc... anyplace undergoing any volatility
> or inflation event, now or past, since gold was removed / banned from standard
> worldwide... anyone have links to news articles where any economically
> significant fraction of the affected populous in such places was carrying
> around and using gold instead of wheelbarrows full of fiat? None?
>
> > Can be converted to fiat currencies where they are strong
>
> Everything is convertible to any other thing, wherever and whenever,
> doesn't mean you or your counterparty will want to,
> at times it might be best to drop it in the rubbish, or keep it.
>
> > Can be converted to fiat currencies, but the transaction may have to be reported.
>
> "Have to" vs "is" vs "you volunteered" info are different things.
>
> > If you become a refugee, gold can be carried with you.
>
> Up to your limited capacity to securely carry weight and bulk.
>
> > Can be stolen at gunpoint.
>
> Carry a gun.
>
> > Doesn't earn interest.
>
> It can.
>
> > The gold standard. :-)
>
> Though fair a meme nonetheless, with cryptocurrency
> a challenger approaching from a distance.
>
>
> > Dollar, Euro, Pound Sterling (well regarded fiat currencies):
>
> > Can be used with electronic payment systems.
>
> Not before converting that paper / metal / poly physical into
> something entirely different... digits in a database.
>
> > Likely to be accepted anywhere.
> > Easy to convert to other currencies
>
> Not really, it's a pain to convert back, assuming you even
> knew how to authenticate and wanted the foreign physical
> in the first place..
>
> > If you become a refugee, notes are transportable and accounts can be accessed
> > if not frozen. (Pick a good jurisdiction for that account.)
>
> They don't let you bring in "good" fiats, they keep it for themselves.
> You're not funding that account electronically through the tight regime
> you have to refugee from. Nor are you transporting their junk it past
> all their checkpoint thieves on the way out, nor is it useful on the
> other side.
>
> > gunpoint, accounts can be protected from that attack.
>
> Thug points to your / bankers dome. Govt thugs do same,
> civil forfeiture, etc.
>
> > Relatively stable in value over the long term
>
> Nice smooth steady loss and redistribution, lovely.
> Case Shiller Index... 2007 deja vu and pop before long.
>
> > Accounts can earn interest.
>
> But don't, not enough to even beat inflation these days,
> a terrible SOV and investment.
>
> > What world commerce runs on.
>
> Can run on cryptocurrencies.
>
>
>
> > Bitcoin:
>
> > Not accepted everywhere.
>
> Can be.
>
> > the transaction is recorded in the blockchain, leaving a record.
>
> Which if using cryptographically private ZKP blockchain like Zcash (ZEC),
> is currently thought to be entirely private thus off the record.
>
> > Can be converted to fiat currencies for
> > wide acceptance everywhere
>
> In the future, Neo, you won't have to.
>
> > If you become a refugee, transport is limited by the electronic devices you can
> > take with you.
>
> False.
> Memorize your brainwallet passphrase.
> Encode keys on or in your body, clothing, luggage, books.
> Ship ahead, or shard among people, or stash online.
> Limitless secure options.
>
> > Wildly changing value over the recent short term
>
> FUD from anti's who don't understand introduction of new things,
> decentralized cryptocurrencies into free markets, all covered before.
> And Impressive increasing value over any long term window beyond
> a year.
>
> > and no long-term track record.
>
> Nine years and counting, impressive for something that's pissing off and
> disrupting fiat govt / banks worldwide. Hardly Pokemon or Linden Dollars.
>
> > Can't earn interest
>
> Value on "deposit" is value invested. Investments can earn.
> Unless you invest them in shitty things like Lehman Brothers.
> While cryptocurrency rising in adoption phase, it eats all others,
> so no sane person can or will pay returns denominated in it,
> until there are entirely cryptocurrency based businesses,
> investment vehicles and cycles, or if its rate of rise falls below
> other vehicles. Better to just buy / sell / short it directly.
>
> > Not widely used in commerce.
>
> Nothing stopping that but you.
>
>
> > Eggs:
>
> > (from the Economist Buttonwood column 7/21/2018 on hyperinflation in
> > Venezuela): Not usable for electronic payment. Generally accepted for
> > payment in Venezuela. Can be sold as a commodity in most locations and
> > converted to other currencies. Not normally tracked by governments. Hard
> > boiling recommended should you become a refugee to improve transportability.
> > Destroyed by fire, but small fires may help them make a good meal.
> > Relatively stable value over the long term, but individual eggs spoil in a
> > matter of weeks to months. Can't earn interest. Used in commerce in limited
> > locations suffering hyperinflation. Can directly provide human nourishment.
>
> Can earn interest... give recently fertilized eggs to someone to hatch
> under contract, you make eggs in return.
>
> I'd peg / tether your price in cryptocurrency for a dozen eggs to each of every
> one of today's hundreds of cryptocurrencies, at today's exchange rate,
> provided you buy all the eggs you eat each month, from me, at the
> aforementioned static crypto/egg peg, using the cryptocurrency of my choice
> at each purchase, for the rest of your life. You'll always pay the same amount
> of whichever crypto for your eggs, zero volatility, guaranteed. I
> reserve the right to
> add any new cryptocurrency at any time pegging it for you at that time, and to
> terminate contract at any time by delivering a dozen hens a laying to you.
>
> Feel free to hedge your backend with Tether (USDT)...
> https://tether.to/
>
>
> "Every day that goes by and [Cryptocurrency] hasn't collapsed due to legal
> or technical problems, that brings new information to the market. It increases
> the chance of [Cryptocurrency's] eventual success and justifies a higher price."
> -- Hal Finney
>
>
> Most people are simply closed minded old dog programmed statist
> sheeple incapable of free thought outside their box (TV box too).
> That's why they can't offer any debate sustainable reason why
> decentralized cryptocurrencies *cannot* be used as money.
> And why the cryptocurrency crowd, having made that leap, offers
> numerous reasons, designs, updates, and ways in which they *can*.
>
> For that matter, seems it'd be a lot more fun crypto coding
> completely novel decentralized cryptocurrencies, than off in a
> corner trying to digitize some crusty old fiat under orders from a
> government / banks with no freedom to change that model :)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 1:47 AM, Rui Paulo via cryptography
> <cryptography@metzdowd.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, 2018-07-23 at 08:17 +0000, Peter Gutmann wrote:
> >> Dammit, why didn't I think of that?  Just as the bottom is falling
> >> out of
> >> ICOs, someone comes up with a new way to extract money out of the
> >> gullible.
> >>
> >>   https://www.cryptokitties.co/
> >>
> >> tl;dr:
> >>
> >> 1. Use actual real money to buy Ethereum.
> >> 2. Use Ethereum to buy a cryptokitty.
> >> 3. ??
> >> 4. ??
> >> 5. No, not profit, just more ??
> >>
> >
> > http://cryptopuppies.org/
>
> Funny how this list will approve, 1up, and talk about the above [1],
> yet censor actual discussion of more serious areas of cryptocurrency,
> (note such with BTC being early on this list), which are in fact material
> relavant to the "technical, social, political, security, privacy, legal,
> and multinational aspects of cryptosystems' of its charter.
>
> [1] which are btw old way news now having been out for ten months,
> for which people are still rightfully free to evaluate investing in, using
> them as currency, or collect / trade /  dispose on whim as deemed fit.
>
> bcc cypherpunks, to witness esteemed lolcat and cute puppy
> posters approved into the censorship / irony / fud log...  and where
> you're actually free to cover relavant 'crypto' currency material,
> and even trade cryptokitties :)