Here we go again with totally different answers! On 2/6/21, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 <punks@tfwno.gf> wrote:
On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 14:34:57 -0500 Karl <gmkarl@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2/6/21, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 <punks@tfwno.gf> wrote:
I'll reply to *some* points.
nah, you're just repeating propaganda, pretending that prostitution overlaps with 'human trafficking'.
Maybe this doesn't happen where you're from, I don't know.
It doesn't happen anywhere. It's US anti-sex propaganda. So either you know little to nothing about the anti-culture in which you live in - the US puritan fascist cesspool - or you're being dishonest.
Punk, I bumped into a weirdo. He said I had to draw a square on the wall, and if I ever told anybody about him, the instructions, or the square, he would kill me!
Do you like to speak in riddles? Or do you do it because you think it serves some purpose? Problem is, I don't understand your riddles. I can try half guessing, but it takes effort and makes the discussion even harder to follow.
It's not a riddle. It's a summarisation of things that have happened to me. The parts were changed to ones I made up. It's meant straight, plus obvious similarity.
There are many solutions to every problem.
This is an allegedly 'anarchist'(LMAO) mailing list and I am an anarchist, so the relevant solution here is abolition of government. Which is the the only morally correct solution by the way.
I'll keep this quoted in the hope that you do too. Helps us have some shared ground, to know that you chose to say that.
I don't need to keep it quoted. But it looks like something you need to keep in mind. So do that. Keep that in mind, not on your computer screen.
I don't really know how to do that. Maybe I could make a notes file regarding our conversations.
You know, you write in an articulated/elaborated way and you don't sound like a fool or crazy to me. At the same time you keep saying you are crazy or hinting that you don't remember what you wrote an hour ago. Those two things put together don't make sense. So my tentative conclusion is that you're not being serious.
I was well-educated before this happened to me.
I'm down for an abolition-of-government solution to human trafficking, which is obviously just a much more personal and violent form of 'governance'.
abolition of government isn't 'obviosly a much more violent form of governance' - what are you talking about.
Let me say that part again, which looks grammatically correct when I review what you quoted: "that thing we're pretending is propaganda, is obviously just a much more personal and violent form of 'governance'"
Sorry, your clarification doesn't really clarify much. Last try :
"I'm down for an abolition-of-government solution to human trafficking"
Ok, that statement is clear and non-ambiguous. But then you add
"which is obviously just a much more personal and violent form of 'governance'"
What is the word "which" pointing at? What is this thing you're describing as "a much more personal and violent form of 'governance'"? As far as I can tell you're saying that abolition of government is a more violent form of government. Which is absurd.
Personal slavery. Where the government is not a large organised body but rather a smaller representative of pain.
We'd have to make sure to prevent slavery, in the government-abolition.
that sounds like typical anti anarchist propaganda.
? When you abolish government you pretty much solve every problem because you can directly address them instead of going through bureaucrats and enforcement officers.
No. When you abolish government, all the problems that governmetn causes dissapear. That's the whole point of abolishing government.
Sorry, thought you were blaming all problems on government. So you do you propose abolishing "government" and not abolishing "slavery"? Personally, like, anarchism is cool, but to me govcorp looks pretty blurry. The USA government would basically disappear by actually respecting people if the powers pulling their strings were wrangled.
But often people leave stuff out when planning.
social planners are interested in planning. Social planners are the opposite of anarchists.
These similarity of "planning" does not mean that planners are governments. Me, I'd like to live in a community where we do not enslave people, but rather respect everyone in it. What do you think of the idea of offering a service to governments and anarchists both, where young women can be forced to seduce activists, possibly even marry them, to take them out of their activism?
Not sure what you mean. 'Legislation' in the US is clearly fascist and it is obviously enforced and supported by people in the US. The words, beliefs and behaviours are all aligned.
Since I'm the dirty cop here, you gotta believe me that the written law is different from what is going on here.
There's no reason for me to believe you and ignore plain evidence. But maybe you're talking about 'laws' that include bullshit like "we love human rights bla bla"?
Tired response. You're more tired than me in some ways, but may not get to say this. "laws". "we love human rights bla bla". Many people believe those laws and follow and live by them. Many of these people are where the government's power comes from, so they actually defend the laws for those people.
Those 'human rights' 'laws' are of course more propaganda. In practice the US has the highest incarceration rate on the planet, it's the most dangerous rogue state on the planet, has military bases all over the planet, etc, etc, and does all that according to their 'laws'.
Most of that stuff is picked by humans, kind of outside the laws. Like, the law might say some human can pick stuff, and the human picks that bad stuff. But, like, yeah, laws are bad. It's really hard to talk like the die-hard antigov you pretend to be after my brainwashing. Is there a word for not actually being a government agent but being about as gross as one? I'm about as gross as a government agent, just in a way that yields great pity, so I think of laws as helpful, now. I was running a story-analogy in this thread-part and I don't remember what it was.
[apologies to any real law enforcement or mafia workers in the crowd, presently engaging a new psychotic break, it's up in the air whether i keep this public moniker]
I'll trim that away if punk doesn't.
Yes, I want to focus on the crimes that the US slavers commit worldwide whereas you're focusing on their 'anti human trafficking' propaganda, which has the exact purpose of hiding their crimes and trying to pretend that they are the 'good guys'.
Really, with a good blockchain'd camera and a big and diverse crowd, you could win lawsuits altering the harmful behaviors of the US, based on antislavery laws.
Haha. Win lawsuits? By definition the govt owns the courts.
I've had success in two court battles myself.
So what kind of anarchist thinks he's going to fight government by hiring government lawyers to discuss pseudo legal bullshit in governmetn courts?
So let me know when you start your anti US govcorp campaign instead of relaying their anti-sex, anti-prostitution propaganda.
Happy to run whatever campaign is willing to welcome all supporters, and listen to all their ideas. If you're intentionally excluding people who want to support you, or their ideas, that's a recipe for disaster, leave me out.
Why wouldn't I exclude people who parrot govt propaganda.
Obviously because somebody would train everybody to parrot it, so that they got the people instead of you.
The united nations is one of many, many organizations that produces information on human trafficking. Here is their 2020 report: https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/tip/2021/GLOTiP_2020_15jan... . It describes sexual slavery as around half the documented human trafficking.
here we go - 'sexual slavery'.
here we go - ignored everything i said and focused on only one small part, pretending it represents something relevant and meaningful.
The only thing you've been doing is pretending that all this 'human trafficking' bullshit isn't US propaganda.
Say there were a tiny bit of human trafficking. Say I had even experienced it! What would be a respectful way to engage this, without spreading bullshit propaganda? Anyway, here's how to start a human trafficking ring. Clean out your basement. Go out on the streets and kidnap some kids. Tie them up in your basement. Keep them separate. Whenever the kids complain, hit them. When they are nice to you, give them nice things. Then, untie them and open the doors. If they try to leave, hit them and tie them back up. Then give them nice things, like food and water and kind words. Repeat until they stay. They train one of them for the others. This one will come and try to 'rescue' them. The path will be believable. The rescue will lead to the punishment area. Practice running rescues until every falls for the rescue and gets punished. Now, repeat the rescue training until nobody ever tries to escape. Great! Now train all these kids to do what you just did, to other people. _Awesome_. You have an automated business that runs itself! Ching-chaching! These people will find new ways to discuss being rescued. But you can train people to get good at finding new strategies to prevent it. Punishment is worth more money than there is on the planet. Here's what's actually true, rather than that bullshit: When somebody tries to control your behavior, they vomit on your soul in a way you can never, ever forget. Like they have told you they hate you in a way so real that you become it. Maybe you consciously forget everything that hurt, everything that is bad, maybe you can't bring to mind any memories of this. But it is written on ever fibre of your being, in a way every part of you understands and knows, like nothing else. This is why government cannot last. Not because of some fake world rebellion.
Nobody told me what to do here. And when I'm told what to do I usually do the opposite.
Yeah? Who would you love to disobey the most? \0xDynamite told me they were in charge, I think.
Oh yes, he's literally a jew theocrat. You can imagine how much I would obey him.
So you're speaking backwards-language? You were told what to do, and you are following orders?
I found some of it. You don't trust the law because Lincoln wasn't really that strong on Freedom, even though they signed it in?
it's pretty clear that 'The North' didn't intend to abolish slavery. It just happened as a side-effect of the civil war to keep the nazi US union. Hell the name of the FUCKING CESSPOOL is UNITED STATES!!
Maybe you were talking for them, then, but you care about me and still want to help me, now?
Am I talking for whom? I'm presenting the historical facts.
Sounds like those older facts are still pretty important. What could happen to make them right?
The anti-human-trafficking laws didn't help establish trust? https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/22/chapter-78
establish trust? I don't know what you mean. Trust in government? Why would you want that?
This was another analogy-story that I forget.
You also quoted that slavery is only legal in the united states as punishment for a crime the victim has been duly convicted of.
so slavery IS STILL LEGAL. What part you don't get?
It sounds like you are really interested in helping close the last loopholes?
last loopholes? The 'loophole' is the existence of government itself.
And no I'm not particulary interested in making govt laws look prettier. The fact that the US govt makes slavery explicitly 'legal' is a good reminder of what governments actually are.
Totally. Justice is run by human beings, not laws. That justice can be a mob of people, a court of law, a mediation, it can be anything. But we need to take action and talk with people, to make it happen. Anyway, sorry you were enslaved to downplay my sharing of rescue information. Obviously I'd be upset at whoever did that, not you.
For me, I haven't engaged in any serious crime, but I can still be convicted in illegal ways that utilise loopholes, coercion, etc. So it's helpful to have documentation and a friend with some resources, of which there may be many on this list.
again, I don't know what you're talking about.
Oh. We'd better talk about it more. What don't you understand?
Government can put anybody they want in jail for any reason (that is, for no reason at all). That's what government is all about.
You mean organised crime! It's organised crime that does that. In the USA laws get in the way of government immediately imprisoning people.
If what you want is to 'reform' government you're anything but an anarchist.
I glanced at the bottom of the email after my last writing was lost, and am guessing you're asking for more people. Any idea how to access /proc/*/mem on a redhat system? I keep getting "Input/output error".
sure sure. The slaves the US govt is saving...
Nah, the US govt doesn't do too much. It's mostly churches and whatnot.
it's...what? Ah US churches. The worst kind of puritan garbage out there and their anti prostitution crusades. Thanks for making my point yet again.
And did you know that _oxygen_ causes _fires_? My god! Can you believe it? And the planet is _covered_ in it!
You think you're teaching me something with your false analogy? Churches are a fucking criminal cancer.
So is carbon monoxide and ozone! It's obviously because they have oxygen in them!
I'm not big on churches, but I like a ton that they help slaves, and also the homeless, everywhere. I also like some of their rituals and values a lot, but not the common belief that other religions could be wrong.
Yeah, nothing says 'anarchism' like US jew-christiano fascists and their 'charity'.
[insert lost story around coordinating with an organiser of a quaker meeting, and how our cultures prevented us from organising the city to resolve homelessness]
I'm actually pretty scared to guess what kinds of people help these things! I'm worried they'd get hurt. Let's guess who they are when we've made it clear we're going to support them.
I am an anarchist. I support the destruction of fucking US jew-kristian churches. And you know what? I MEAN WHAT I SAY.
Arright, we better understand each other.
Since I'm not aware of any jew churches, I think what you mean is that we REALLY need to fight BAD STUFF. And we need to do this almost more than anything else. Is that accurate?
"I'm not aware of any jew churches"
yeah right. You need to open your eyes then - learn the basic history of jew-kkkristian fascism. Look up "puritanism" in joogle? Go to a library?
You can start with this : christianity is a form of totalitarianism derived from jew savagery and totalitarianism.
Although many people make that logical sloppiness, nobody really does it in this context. Thinking on the value of speaking straight. Wrote a lot more last time. Experiencing some cognitive issues here.
so why do you pretend that the US govt and its supporters are opposed to slavery?
To try to help it be more true than it already is, so we can be free sooner.
What the hell are you saying exactly? You keep lying and helping the US govt criminals spread propaganda so that they become the 'good guys'? Talk about meaningless absurdities...
Lemme rephrase for you: If you are stuck in the fucking USA, and you need some fucking freedom before we take down the fucking government, the fucking USA human trafficking hotline might be able to help.
See? You can talk in a clear way with little effort. And the clear reply is : the 'human trafficking' 'hotline' is just for show. It's propaganda to get people to believe that the government is good and caring. The 'human trafficking' 'hotline' does more harm than good.
My names is FakeAnarchistGimmeMoreBeerAndWeed FakeAnarchistLetsFuckingBlowUpTheFuckingWhiteHouse Anyway, if you want to fucking die in the street while fucking cops rip your fucking tent to shreds and fucking brutalise your fucking body, be my guest, but shit do fucking smart people fucking sign up for fucking government aid and talk to a fucking therapist who doesn't fucking slur through a pile of fucking forties to say everything. I dunno, man. Maybe you don't know how nice it is to be able to contact a freedom resource when what you've been through is beyond what anybody you talk to seems able to comprehend. I asked my therapist if he could find somebody who had experience working with torture victims. He said he'd try a little bit. I can't fend for myself anymore. I've always given to others. When I'm on the streets, people can tell that I had a middle-class experience. But now I need to take to myself to survive. I'm a software developer. It's like all I know how to do well. It would be really powerful if I could do anything useful with it, but I'm brainwashed not to. Hmm. I'm so confused. Are you asking me to join street communities instead of calling the human trafficking hotline? Why are you speaking in riddles when you do this? I like doing that. I love being outdoors. Okay here's why I'm weird: I want to talk to someone who understands, and the streets are full of people who understand. I don't have to hop through 200 therapists to find this. That's an interesting idea.
[aside: I don't consent to swearing; I need some tool that helps me build habits I choose.]
It's obvious the US government is crummy.
crummy?
Functions as a tool of denied global systemic murder, acting with great obsession to stay that way. This is obvious, and people work hard to slowly change it.
So the US govt isn't crummy. It's the *most efficient* and most toxic criminal organization on the planet.
Sounds like your conversation is more important than mine for a reason you know really well. I didn't mean at all to not say the true thing you said.
Ok, maybe I got the meaning of 'crummy' wrong. I haven't seen that word used much (not making excuses). I thought 'crummy' meant something like " dirty and run-down; shabby."
Yeah, it means like "a little bad". I was just moving focus back towards providing more options for victims of slavery.
You keep assuming in your talk that there is no such thing as modern-day slavery, and you seem unable to discuss this.
modern day slavery is the political system we live in.
And we can reduce it! Tada!
Yes, but certainly not by calling the government's 'human trafficking' 'hotline'.
Actually, this is helpful.
If you call the governmetn's 'human trafficking' 'hotline' you'll increase modern day slavery by playing into the governmetn's hands.
Well, due to phone surveillance and culture organisation, yes, but you'll also expend their resources monitoring you and influencing the people working there, and you they'll have to listen to some of the story and could turn into rebels. Anyway, so, you work for a government? Since you're clearly doing a job here and keep blaming the government for slavery.
This makes it clear that you are experiencing it, in a way that is very hard to understand.
I'm experiencing what? Slavery at the hands of govcorp? well yeah. Is that news?
It's always news if you can't talk about the details of it.
The details are everywhere. Did you hear about the fake 'covid' 'pandemic' and the fact that that half the world has been/is under house arrest? What's your take on all that?
Hey this long answer was where my email closed! So, as far as I know, it's the response that's fake. Covid is real, the response is fake. So that's just 1 layer of unclear communication with you there. Usually many more it seems. It seems to be a way to gain better control of the world as technology and communicatoin resulting from grassroots activism develop, dunno. Kinda looks like it also helps people stimulating disruption, what with the public masks hiding faces and all. Oh, it reduces the need for surveillance infrastructure, since everybody is indoors and online. This probably helps defuse the ongoing cold war. The nice thing about that is that people with urgent importance can of course leave their home to do things, but most people won't which probably satisfies a lot of powerful people. Oh, and it supports internet businesses, showing development between big social / big tech / whatnot and international crime. Maybe it's a mediation point between many possibly-secret international power groups who may be quite happy to take down government if protected in doing so. What was left out for your values?
worse than being in government jails? Oh wait, you just keep parroting bullshit from US TV and pentagon sponsored TV series, sorry. Yeah, I'm sure that 'reality' is pretty bad.
_Yeah_. _Worse_than_being_in_government_jails_. In jail they _feed_you_. They _protect_you_a_tiny_bit_. They _give_you_a_way_to_talk_with_others_.
You can die of injuries but they usually aren't as grotesque.
If you kill yourself somebody finds you and sees you, pretty quickly, and your family find out.
Not only that, your family has a reliable way of finding you and talking to you.
In a USA jail you get work that is clearly described, and further punishments that are clear.
In jail, you don't get forced to return to your family, lie to them, and secretly harm them! Isn't that great?
What show am I copying?
Anything produced in the US. Everything you say is pretty cliche. Your ode to US jails was quite something. I think this discussion is past its shelf life.
Well, the jail I was in was maybe nicer than others. I hear the prisons are where the real torture happens. My request for a show was serious. Most shows I find are kinda stupid, assuming there is no corruption or that it isn't deeply intertwined with everything. I have never seen a show where somebody has to adopt a secret life of slavery for a corporate mafia and cover it up. I haven't watched a lot of shows, most seem uninteresting. I watch shows sometimes because my brainwashing accepts the behavior as me not engaging in rebellion. Lets me rebuild some of my memory, for example.
I need good shows that talk about real things. I have found very few.
> People who want to end slavery should be planning how to destroy > government, not taking stolen money from government.
Regarding anarchism, this is faulty logic. You have more power if you steal money from your government.
1) the govt doesn't 'own' any money. All they have, they stole it. When you take govt money you just become an accomplice of government theft. The exact opposite of what any actual anarchist would do.
The government makes the money. But yeah it's all stolen from their people.
right, the govt prints the pseudo money, but the actual resources are stolen from all the holders of money. In the case of US dollars, the US govt is STEALING from people ALL OVER THE WORLD.
obviously, why are you saying this i suppose because you don't know what to say, and don't want to talk about slavery.
2) the govt only gives money to their accomplices and other useful idiots who are not a threat, at all, to government.
Whistleblowers.
whistleblowers are not paid for what they do. They are persecuted by the govt.
they were paid before they blew their whistle.
Social aid.
propaganda, vote buying, crums to keep the masses from revolting, etc. 'social aid' is obviously bad, unless you're a social democrat who is selling statism.
i've got an idea let's find all those homeless bums living off social aid because they were enslaved by a street-representative of their local law enforcement and some pharmaceuticals, steal all their money, and invest it in cryptocurrency right before a bubble, then we can use the money to make a brainwashing camp where we train the homeless to hate the government more. whaddaya think?
Also, hackers who have been influenced to work for them, of which many are likely on this list, honestly believing themselves to be anarchists.
if you're talking about 'hackers' working for the govt, those worthless scumbags need killing. They belong in the "sellout" category and in the "enabler-of-child-murder" category.
did you get that phrasing from pr? i didn't know we were killing people. is the service available to people looking for suicide after being forced to do something they hate for years?
You can get paid a ton as a hacker.
yeah the more corrupt you are, the bigger your govcorp paycheck is.
we were trained since we were kids that money was the only way to survive, i mean give us a little break here. how do you survive without money?
So, hopefully you see that taking money from the govt is bad in many different ways.
none of them seemed convincing to me. seems to me the biggest danger is being tracked, really, as well as developing habits that aren't helpful where you spend the money to survive, and using up time if you are working for it with your time.
So, 'regarding anarchism', it's now obvious who is the one using faulty logic, and it isn't me.
this doesn't seem realistic to me. and i am really good at interpreting things as realistic. but i also have a horrible memory, in that i tend to only remember what i already can see.
You just need to avoid all their traps and influence.
Yeah sure. So you take stolen money, but you think you're so clever you're going to use the stolen money against the thieves. "The end justifies the means", oldest govcorp slogan ever. And not only that, you are arrogant enough to believe you're going to outsmart the biggest criminals in town.
I never totally understood that arrogance but it seems to actually make a difference.
They watch people with money and act when it's used. That means you get one big expenditure.
I also was able to spread money around safely a lot by using small amounts of cash. Just make a habit of holding more and more cash, and then you'll have it to use in ways that are less dangerous [i.e. visit the people in need and leave it for them to find].
[This is a debate I haven't been exposed to, to know the details of.
now you have
Juan-Sensei.
So. How do we take them down?
we need some critical mass of people who know what they are talking about.
we need some critical mass of people who know what they are talking about. - how do we know whether they know what they are talking about? - note: people who know about everything and talk about it get seriously harmed. so we would probably have people who know about different things, that they are talking about. any further thoughts?