On Thu, Sep 01, 2016 at 06:17:12PM +0900, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:

We do make sport of improvement plans for the global situation. I feel we
do pretty well, probably on account of tossing history and a lot of feeling
out of the window. More importantly, we ignore the difficulty of reaching
the envisioned state. It is interesting, and could well improve our ideas
of how things should be.

Reg. US/EU vs CN/RU, CN will overtake economic and thus military capacities
well within 20 years. From that moment onward we are subject to Chinese
politics.

Dichomatic position / dichotomy thinking / black white "options":

 - now we are not subject to "Chinese politics"

 - shortly we shall be "subject to" Chinese politics
   (and have no real say in the relationship)

Relationships are built. Over time.

Control (such as from WWII victor money printing) can be lost
overnight.

The world can change.

The world has changed.

My guess is they will start with harassment of neighbouring
countries, and just move on from there.

"and just move on from there ... harassing more and more countries"

"That's the only possible outcome, since that's all we can think of,
since we are the USA/ NATO/ CIA, and that's what we do to everyone else,
therefore that's what China will do, black / white, it must be so."


I don't know that you're not right. But I hold that more nuanced
conversations are much more useful, and more importantly I hold that
dichotomies are very useful for:

- propaganda

- steering converations in "desired" directions

- distracting the targetted minds from deeper thought

- justifying the tyranny "of our side" (since "their side is so bad, we
  must start war first, since now we can win, we must win, they will
  destroy us otherwise!!!!")

Likely eventually
forcing/negotiating a surrender, rather than WW3, on account of
our pacifist intents.

More dichotomies. I have seen no one here promoting pacifism as the be
all and end all only solution to all problems.

Sounds like .. you guessed it .. more dichotomies!
Yay! We are -on- to it!

"If we don't strike now with a containable war, we shall be forced
to negotiate, to surrender, on terms which would be less favourable
than if we struck now."


Dunno about others, but I am hearing premises, assumptions and
foundations which are fundamentally mental! As in offensive. As in,
worthy of being shot down in flames.

ATM we would win.

"We" being "the almighty north atlantic USA hegemonic exceptionalistan".

We got it, U !!  S !!  A !!

We would win !! We would win !!

Western hegemonic brothers fighting the good opportunistic fuck over the
asians, fuck over the russkies and cypriots, fuck over any who are
possibly weak enough to SURRENDER on ... that's it .. OUR TERMS!

YEAH, 'cause WE ARE THE WINNERS, and you know what? Yeah, WE OWN THE
FINISH LINE (for anyone who missed the recent posted links, that's
a quote from the DNC party head honcho recent speech - "we OWN the
finish line!").


I do not consent to "the West" acting as bullies all around the world.


Read my words again:


   I  do  not  consent  to  being  bullies.


Is common human decency so unacceptable these days?

Perhaps the idiotic US candidates are put forth to
provoke war on our terms.

Indeed. Of this I have no doubt.

A war we would win - with large casualties. A war we should fight if
we like democracy and individualistic financial economy, and that
form of "do whatever you want" that we have.

Thank you for speaking so clearly. This honesty is genuinely needed at
this point in time, so that we might move forward in the conversation.

To respond to you:  Keh?!!!

Right now, at least for the next few short years until the USA
runs out of the credit from its inflation racket it has been exporting
to the rest of the world since WWII and Bretton Woods, the USA could
fund a war against "lesser, inferior nations" - let's not beat around
the bush, the two candidates are Russia and China, or quite probably
both allied together.

But how can you call the potential nuclear war which would almost
certainly break out, a "win"?

It would not be a win for nature. No win for the oceans or livable
land areas all over the West, China, Russia.

Even if the USA continues to use (with Israel) their tactical
"neutron" nukes, to minimize environmental damage and radioactive half
life decay to "reasonable" (you fuckers, the conversation has got to
this point - but this is who you are!!) evironmental consequence
levels, I guarantee you this:

Russia, and China, and possibly India if they were drawn in, will NOT
limit their counter punches to your fancy choice of weapons!

Russia first and foremost WILL punish the North Americans with the
most widespread and massive "traditional radioactive" atomic fallout
that they are capable of, should Exceptionalistan (the USA) move from
this line of thinking, into action.

Check out recent Russia-Insider.com for an article on Russia's amazing
"way underground" dead-hand bunker - funded after the collapse of the
USSR courtesy the Clinton Foundation! The reality is absolutely
fucking hilarious!! (And it's a damn good thing, if not for North
America!)


So, dear USA, you might wipe out a billion humans - Chinese, Russians
and god knows who else, cause millenia of radio active environmental
mess in the USA due to the backlash, and somehow at the end of it all,
you say you had a "win" ??

??

      ??

   ?

            ? ?      ?        ?


Well, I've seen plenty of really messed up thinking, very recently on
this list, but this takes the cake.

That is, if you believe
China would actually end up fighting, rather than becoming as
pacifist as the west.

"Ooh! Up and coming China gonna be big and bad,
surely we gotta fuck them over now, whilst we can still
"win" - surely?"


(Again, thanks for your honesty in your thinking - we cannot move
forward without that.)


To answer simply and without facetiousness, so there is no
misunderstanding:


No! That is not what 'we' should do.


Dignity and all human decency demands that we find, as hard you might
find it and as challenging as that might be to your pay masters, a
"better" way.


I am confident that when you look deeply within, discuss sincerely
with others, perhaps consider productive and partnership relationships
at national levels with the likes of Russia and China and India, that
solutions shall arise, and that you shall also find that bloodbaths
are not the only way to solve international matters.


For those so inclined, I suggest a trip to your local place of worship
and gratitude for your life - perhaps that is a place in your heart,
perhaps it's a gathering place with friends of like spirit.

If you have ever spoken to Chinese, you will
know the latter to be less likely than the former.

More "boogey man" fear promulgation. Whatever the truth, let
us begin to handle our international affairs with dignity and
righteousness.

I hope you and your team are capable of that much. Perhaps read a few
of Putin's public speeches to get a flavour of "what is" a dignified
public mask. America has plenty of examples but your cultural
'exceptionalism' both blinds you and has caused much destruction of
that which is good and wholesome within your own people, so it's
harder to spot these days - even historical examples - as your
consciousness is dominated with things that to some outside observers,
is literally embarrassing to watch.

Of course, the
world is banking on peace - given we are allowing China to advance.

"we are allowing"

More exceptionalistan leaking out. Again, the honesty is good, please
don't take my highlighting as any disincentive to being so open and
honest - the world needs this conversation really really badly right
now.

I do hope that China intentionally turns itself pacifist.

I hope that China and the Chinese find dignity, peace and prosperity,
as well as good relationships with their neighbours and everyone else
around this beautiful blue planet.

I have serious concerns when I see things like their cowardly
non-support for Russia in Syria (despite the back room diplomatic
attempts to make that happen from both sides), and yet their recent
attempt to muscle in to "train Syrian soldiers" and cash in on the
Syrian recovery effort, with ZERO prior communication with Russia,
demonstrates that China is still insecure, lacking the strength and
dignity to demonstrate respect with those who would truly be partners
with her (Russia in this case) - see here for details:

"Is Russia Actually Upset China Is Preparing to Train Syria's
Military?"
http://russia-insider.com/en/russia-actually-upset/ri16163


What China has not understood is that Russia, when treated with
respect and dignity, will demonstrate loyalty and dignity 100 times
over in return.

China however, is still insecure, feeling that she has to demonstrate
"indepence" and "strength" and wants to "make amends to ourselves for
the century of humiliation and all that".


We need a MUCH BETTER, and MUCH MORE DIGNIFIED conversation between
nations!!!

FFS diplomats - get to it! This world is crying out!
 - Understand the cultural historical memories/ problems of especially
   the large nations that are not your own!
 - America: demonstrate respect, understanding and a willingness to
   engage your "competitors" in ways which demonstrate that
   understanding and respect!
 - STOP insulting your neighbours/ peers/ competitors.
 - STOP using bloodbaths as the first solution to every problem.

And especially:
 - America, STOP considering that reduction of your power is a
   problem!

Find all this hard? May be talk to the Dalai Lama :)

It would save a lot of lives, money and time. It's borders are large
enough, most would say. I cannot pretend to know "what China wants",
so I cannot really say how it will behave.

The Chinese are imbued with insecurity. They have suffered what they
cling to as "a century of humiliation".

Is bullying the Chinese around --- in their own historical back yard
--- (i.e. the South China Sea) going to build a warmer, more
understanding relationship?

Is your official policy of "containment, financial, diplomatic and
militarily", something that creates a sense of dignity and mutual
respect?


Seriously, why is it so hard for exceptionalistan to stop acting like
absolute arseholes, all around the world, and killing people in every
continent on earth?

How is it that you can believe that doing as America does, creates in
the long term a safer world for Americans and her 'allies'?

Do you not have this self awareness?

My talks with Chinese have shown a pride in their ignorance of
politics. And a government in exclusively self-checked control.

OK.

As a side note: I would propose we split the world into countries of equal
population, introducing a GDP based tax

Well there's your anarchist cred...

to (softly) ease imbalance between
these new nations.

Ah, a new "one world order" supporter eh?

Still Exceptionalistan to rule the world forever more hey?

That is no longer possible. Putin put paid to that when he gave
balls to the global south to unite in BRICS.

Yes some are paying America's usual price - Brazil, South America and
others, but this snow ball cannot be stopped. Even Australia joined
the BRICS bank - gotta pay to play as they say ...

(Yes Saddam and Qaddhafi had balls, but not the required partnerships
and therefore military support, which they evidently failed to grok,
to their respective demise, sadly.)

It only requires a bye-bye to nationalism.

Not going to happen.

Don't you see it? - from Marine le Pen to Nigel Farage to
The Don / Donald Trump, nationalism is making a come back like the
world rarely sees - and here's a funky new term, "post-imperialism":
http://theduran.com/nigel-farage-donald-trump-heralds-dignified-decline/

The size of each nation should be chosen based on evidence of that
size being effective - which sizes of government perform better. The

You're making suggestions which in this forum are never going to fly -
we get that you're appealing to technocratic hubris and superiority
complexes, but fundamentally we're aiming for something different -
individual sovereignty.

And on the way there, a One World Government and a one world tax, that
the IMF can levy and the NWO can administer, is NOT even close to OUR
best option.

Nationalism may not be a tough place for us indidivual sovereigntists
to start from, but it's a damn sight better than your one world
government.

<insert here, various flowery and colorful terms in response to
your suggestion>

internal structure of a nation is quite moot.

Quite moot for a one world government. That's why here in Australia,
TPTB have (unfortunately) successfully amalgamated nearly all of our
local councils across all states of Australia into "super councils" -
much easier to control the bastards when their "representatives" are
far away, and "ruling" over very large and disparate groups and areas.

And now they talk about getting rid of our states altogether - just
national / federal, and local; unspoken is that so this makes the
third tier of the one world government, easier to justify, and all
tiers easier to control.


Did I mention that's not going to happen now?

Whatever works. War would be illegal. Natural resources and
permissible pollution should be auctioned on a global market.

You don't hold back in your positions, that's for sure. Nothing bad
about not being backwards about being forwards, I always say!

Your honesty is genuinely appreciated by us. It's our only hope for a
sane conversation; can't make progress on innuendo...

As Putin said about Snowden, "well he's nothing if not consistent" :)

We can have a shared (UN?) court

Because fewer (but corruptible) institutions is better, right?

for determining things like permissible pollution and settling
lawsuits that are carried all the way up. For settling disputes
between nations, and their adherence to global law.

Sorry, all your one world / new world order shit can go to hell.

Not going to happen. Not going to fly here. Not going to be consented
to by China nor Russia nor Australia.

Simply, there's no point arguing for it any more since at the very
least BRICS has stamped an unstoppable foot on the world stage - we
are all going to get a multi-polar world, whether you Americans like
it or not.

I might be powerful, but even -my- words cannot stop BRICS now.

I'd like to see "timeliness of justice" to exist.

Yeah, well, institute that in America, then get back to us with
your magnificent demonstration of "how it's -really- done" :)

Don't worry, we're waiting...

I'd like to see the US'
pieces remove it's landmines, and stop it's hollow points etc, and stop
killing it's citizens without due process,

How about the USA stop killing citizens in OTHER countries to start
with?

If the American Military Industrial Spying Banking Overthrowing
Complex can be brought to heel, do you think that might be a good
start to "more stability" in the world?

and for Israel not to drop white phosphorous into civil areas, and

And the CIA to stop using chemical weapons deliveries to foreign
nations such as Syria as an attempt to overthrow those soverein
foreign nations?

Would that reduce the instability in those foreign nations?

for Russia not to annex nations,

So a one world court and one world government will cause the rest of
the world to heel to America's wishes?

Like not running referenda of the people for the people, and
respecting the outcome of those referenda?


Because, you know, democracy is what we want for a one world order, in
particular nothing resembling democracy of the people?


Please, do elaborate on your position. This one might even be
fruitful.

and for China to stop polluting the
planet to beyond critical,

May be those economic policies instituted by America which
institionalized the economic motivation for American companies to
outsource the bulk of their manufacturing and pollution creation to
China has something to do with this?

Please, this is likely another fruitful conversation.

for European nations to make good on
their human rights promises regarding immigrants,

So holding "the people" of a nation, to be bound to the statutes made
by non-democratic processes, regardless of the will of the people of
those nations?

Because, as we saw some weeks back, nearly every referendum in the EU
so far, which has gone against the wishes of Brussels, has been either
watered down, re-run until the "correct" vote was achieved, or simply
ignored - THAT sort of "binding" of the people be suitable for
America's (Rothschilds', Rockerfella's, etc's) New World Order?


I mean seriously, don't you EVER consider "the people"? Or did you
create a corporation listed on the NYSE called The People to absolve
you from your own conscience?

Or do you have no conscience?


Seriously, I don't want to know "what's in it for us" when it comes
to your proposed new world order.

STEP 1, is, you need to start thinking, and speaking, about us, not us
as corporations to be auctioned off as national debt via birth
certificates and corporations, not us as tax file numbers, not "the
people" as some sort of amorphous compliant "fodder for the oligarchy"
concept, but WE, as INDIVIDUALS.

Juan for instance, from some South American nation - what's in all
this for him?

Rayzer for instance, from the grande olde US of A - what's in it for
him?

Александр for example, from an entirely different continent, what's in
it for him?


You guys are missing the bloody point - you are SO self obsession, SO
"U S A is exceptional" obsessed, you are completely missing how WE, as
INDIVIDUALS, observe and HEAR the things you say!


And it's a good thing, again, that you speak so honestly. It's really
important in fact. How can Mirimir have any faith in you if you don't
speak honestly?

for someone, anyone really, to stop ISIS' obvious human rights
offenses,

Have you read ANY of the links posted on this list, in the last 2
years, demonstrating and giving numerous examples, of how the USA, the
CIA, the American military, all work with, fund, train and otherwise
are the godfathers of, ISIS?

Even in the mainstream media?


Are you serisouly expecting "a little honesty" on your part to cause
anyone on this list to blindly ignore the elephant STAMPEDE in our
collective living room?



It is almost unbelievable that you cannot see how we see you.
But, exceptional superiors and all that.

You need to know, when one of us says something like "the exceptional
nation" or "exceptional superiors" - we are expressing a deep and
abiding cynicism, disgust and general abhorrent shock, deep shock in
fact, at how seriously messed up you guys (and gals) are.


You really, really, really really really, need to take this on board.


It's a very simple concept.


You are not exceptional.


You currently wield exceptional monetary and military power.


The monetary power you currently wield, is about to collapse, in the
next few short years.


Your military power is going to be surpassed by the global south in
the next 20 years max, but in fact most probably will collapse within
about 6 months (max) of the collapse of the US dollar.



Seriously, for the benefit of your oligarchical selves, for the
benefit of the world, and for the benefit of the citizens of the USA
and its allies, you need to start seriously:
- engaging individuals in respect and dignity
- considering individuals, their needs and wants for themselves and
  their grandchildren
- engaging nations and considering their needs, desires and potential
  future problems - but WITHOUT using bloodbaths as the every solution

Please.

It should be politics like we're used to.

Once again, thank you for your true colours. I hope you reply with
more of this genuine discussion - the world so desperately needs it.

On this point, I repeat - no, it will not be politics as usual. The
new world order has happened, and it's called the global south and
BRICS.

There are ways to mold this, but I will not speak to that. You must
come a very long way
1) in your dialogue

2) in your respect for individual humans

3) in your expressions of self awareness - bring a good helping of
   humility, dignity and respect for others


as without these and various other fundamentals, most normal folks
will keep ignoring you, swearing at you and giving up altogether. And
apathetic humans who feel powerless, is no longer useful to you.


You oligarchs have left your run in Iraq too late. You continue to
"milk" your wars for the financial benefit of the MIC / oligarchs, and
you have already caused a great cost to become shortly paid by most
Americans.


This is very sad, but sadly needed. We cannot even stop it if we
wanted.

Only we've levelled the players' fields to make the game better. And
stand a chance at forcing good behaviour.

Your dialogue is self defeating. Your chess pieces in the game are
checkmated but you do not see it yet. It comes.

You have done much that you ought not have done, but you did anyway.

And you thought no consequence would be brought by history?


"We" are no longer at the end of WWII, victors dictating terms to the
rest of the world, to all other nations.


There is no point fomenting WW3, because that will be utterly self
defeating and make this planet a bad place to be, rather than a lovely
place.

And besides, you will lose WW3 if you begin it anyway, you just don't
see it.

You see, everyone is intertwined today. In WW2, the media was delayed,
and 100% controllable.

Today, neither of these are still the case - information transfer is
instantaneous, and you cannot control anything like all the
information channels.


And so, you can no longer control the discourse.


And so we will not accept the lies your MSM put to us. And the
interlinking is deep and a snowball of reaction will arise.


Nostradamus saw but one possible future of intentions.


Let's create better futures, with better, healthier intentions.

So, can we achieve this system? Of course not. But would it work?

Yes in principle anything "could be made to work", but you have left
your run way too late, the horse has left the barn. The other players
will no longer stand for such a world order.

Well, not trivially, but yes, it would be better than the Pax
Americana.

Your opinion is not shared by many these days. America rubbed Russia's
face in America's USSR excrement. It was absolutely disgraceful.


Russia, and Russians, may forgive, but she will never forget.


You have left your run far too late. So late that any serious push
will descend into WW3 and disaster for nature on this planet. That is
insanity, and would demonstrate nothing but abject rage, anger and
despotic spite for all humanity.

That would be irrational.

Or, I guess, the peace of those that actually "run" the
US. (probably some association(s?) of people with outrageous capital
looking to expand their circle of capitalism/power to the rest of
the world?)

Yep. But it's too late - you left your run far too late.

We humans know something better, and it's called rebelling against
oligarchs :)

Reg. brainwashing and individual power, I know you want brainwashing
to be responsible,

That would be a start, but what we want is something other than
"brainwashing" altogether. Individually many of us may not "deserve" a
great education, but collectively, and for our children and
grandchildren, we deserve to make it happen for as many as possible,
to at least try to create some sort of foundation for a more
enlightened future.

Is it for us to cower in fear of future generations and keep dumming
them down?

Why live a little faith in future generations?

but most likely the brainwashing is generally
improving the situation.

No. That's your false exceptionalism again. We are not exceptional -
we are only as "exceptional" as our actions in this world, and dumming
down entire populations is not an exceptional thing to do.

We suffer the non-exceptionalistic results of our non-exceptional
actions. By "we" I mean our grandchildren.

People are the problem,

People are the reality.

not all, but many,
and the brainwashing,

people suffer the brainwashing, and we suffer the result;
it's really messed up

through religion, television, smart filtering, is primarily making
them behave in a way that is generally civilised and cooperative.

You are misguided. Look at the 'enlightenment' periods in history -
including non-western periods (the European "dark ages" and the
Persian empire).

Fertile soil begets wonders perhaps unimaginable, humans we can be
proud of, inspiring events we may fear, yet ought embrace - how can we
consider we are "living" life if we fail to demonstrate a little faith
in our "fellow humans"?

I don't know what else it does,

Of course you do!

Brainwashing fucks us up - how difficult is it for us to break our
brainwash molds?


We have the collective right to individual enlightenment! Who are we
to deny that to the "lowest"?

of course, but without the brainwash
people are probably less nice, not more nice, and individual control
is just awful.

Bad things happen in life, bad events that is - where a bad person
comes along and fucks you up at a bar or something. But dumming folks
down does not solve that.

In fact, education (not schooling) begets the possibility of genuine
dignity, self respect, and acknowledgement of limitations.

Listen, you are speaking from a position of fear. Fear begets fear.
As the old saying goes "nothing to fear but fear itself".


Please read up on that historical episode in America - please jump in
folks, I need help on this one - where someone wrote something like
"we should never try to invade North America - they all carry guns,
and they read their bibles cover to cover and at least a verse every
night, and never did I stay a guest in someone's house and they hadn't
a bible on the mantle" (or words to that effect).


An educated nation is a nation and a people with possibilities, alive
and kicking, healthy of mind and spirit, and hear this: it is a nation
engaged with the world in amazing ways - witness the growth of America
and her relationships in 300 years!


The example of your own country counters your position!

If only because less disparity means less friction
means less trouble.

Your fear, as well as your (natural human) desire for control and some
conception of "order", is what is speaking.

Please try to understand why, and from what place inside yourself, you
are speaking from - this is absolutely essential.

Perhaps you would attend a Vipassana or other meditation course? Or
take a retreat from other humans and live in mild austerity for a few
weeks, with serious contemplation to this type of conversation.

The whole world, but especially the American people, need you (and as
many as have any influence at all) to do this, on behalf of them -
they are so badly dummed down that they are now very largely dependent
on you and those you work with and for. You and your sort have created
this - it's a bloody mess and you need to find something inside
yourself to try to improve their lot in the next few years, because it
will be hell on earth for many; this you oligarchs have collectively
created (the mess, -and- the dumming down), and are therefore
responsible for!

Please stop being so negligent! There is more to life than power and
control!

If you want to see what anarchy does, basically
Detroit. As soon as things start looking better, it starts looking
more like government.

Absolute rubbish. Don't go there, since you don't know (evidently at
this point in time) what you're talking about.

/rant

Again, thank you for your honesty.

It is actually very useful when we speak openly and honestly - we
can begin to get to the heart of our own thinking, our own belief
systems, and yes we also expose ourselves to be challenged by others
in the conversation (!! OMG !!).


How else can we have any opportunity to see the hat we wear, from a
different perspective, and ask ourselves if we want to change our
current hat, take a new perspective?


Let's not be blind to any evil intentions from China or anyone or any
group collectively or individually (I encourage vigilance on this).

But note carefully, I care not if you are Chinese, Russian, North
American or some Amazonian tribe yet to interact with anyone outside
your jungle home:

 an evil intention is an evil intention, and must be recognized, then
 named and discussed publicly, and finally, if that evil intention is
 manifested as an evil action, THAT is what must be handled.


We handle words, actions, we do NOT pre-empt a potential future
"aggressive nation" with a bloodbath "before any action or words".

We temper our handling (response to evil actions/ words) with
appropriate use of force, appropriate words, appropriate actions.


We must handle the --specific-- evil deed, not the unspoken intention
- prepare and be ready, yes, but don't bring the bloodbath without
absolute and just cause!



When we be so exceptional, so truly superior that we assume the
right to pre-emptively kill others, in foreign lands and those who
have completely different cultural and social ways, beliefs and
conversations, then WE have become the evil ones!




I know who you are. We humans deserve a better future.
Please support that.