Dnia sobota, 23 stycznia 2016 18:23:57 juan pisze:
Are you saying criminal organisations never are (or at least start of) as voluntary ones?
The targets/victims of those organizations are not, by definition, 'voluntary'. Like you know, government subjects. Subjects. As in, being subjected to. Against their will.
The mafia is a 'voluntary organization' only if you look at the mafiosos. Their VICTIMS, who are extorted, are not 'voluntary' extorted. (...)
I did not say a single word about victims. But hey, let's play: if a mafia outlet kills a member of this very mafia outlet (due to some internal business), does that make that (dead) mafioso a victim? If so, does that suddenly make the mafioso a "non-voluntary" mafioso? Also, I would say that Wikipedia became a "victim" of Internet Watch Foundation's Internet censorship. I am perfectly happy to agree that Wikipedia was not a "voluntary" victim of it. However, does that make IWF suddenly not a civil society organisation? Or, perhaps, we can actually have civil society organisations that (sadly) show signs of being corrupted by the power (over *something*)?
Are you saying no voluntary organisations can ever be or become criminal?
A voluntary organization can stop being voluntary. At that point it's not voluntary anymore. It's becomes a state or state-like organization attacking people.
Shouldn't be too hard to understand eh?
Well, at what point a voluntary organisation stops being voluntary? When they commit their first crime? I am confused about your usage of the word "voluntary" here. Are you not actually looking for "non-criminal"?
Also, I never "equated civil society with mafia/government"
Dude, your whole quote and post are there. You listed mafia and civil society in the same sentece. If your writing is sloppy it's not my fault.
If that's your standard for "equating", then I have to ask... Why are you equating civil society to mafia? After all, you just "listed civil society and mafia in the same sentence". Here it is again, for your distinct viewing pleasure:
You listed mafia and civil society in the same sentece.
:)
(making such sweeping comparisons seems to be your job here). I said that even within civil society, if a given organisation has too much power, it might corrupt said organisation (or rather, people within it).
Begs the question, what kind of power do they have and how they got it?
That's actually a valid point. Your default answer will be "Teh Gubmint", and in the particular case of IWF, you'd actually be right. Thing is, does that mean that we have: - a civil society organisation - that *you agree* has been to some extent corrupted by power they got? It's a "yes/no" question.
Might I offer an example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Watch_Foundation#Blacklist_of_web_p ages What do you think those idiots stand for? They look like a typical right winger puritan assholes to me.
And yet they are a civil society organisation. My point stands: *even* civil society can be corrupted by power. Do you not agree?
/me now waits, eating popcorn, for the inevitable No True Scotsman
Sure. That coming from such a master of state logic like you. As in, power bad, but government good.
Governments are not good in and of themselves. But seeing *everything* that a government touches as evil/bad/criminal/your-word-here is akin to seeing everything that contains mercury (the element) as toxic. If that doesn't ring a bell, let me help you with that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy So basically, yes, I am now calling your anti-Tor bullshit akin to the anti- vaccine crowd bullshit (or, as I prefer to call them, "pro-disease").
Or is it, "power actually good" when your team uses it?
Power bad always, needs to be checked, *regardless* of whether or not it (power) happens to be in the hands of a government, mafia, private sector, civil society, or pixies and unicorns. Problem is, there are many, many different power structures. Governments are one kind of these. But there are many more, and they emerge on their own, all the time. Looking *only* on governments (and mafia) and missing the broader picture is just plain silly. Still, sometimes I would love to have your simple "gummint bad, private sector good, remove gummint and the free market will cure cancer" view of the world. One can dream... -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147