On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, Steve Schear wrote:

...

A PC, using off-the-shelf HW, is capable of filtering a full 100 Mbps link (144K packets/sec) as demonstrated by the BlackICE products http://www.networkice.com/html/blackice_sentry.html

At 03:20 AM 11/20/00 +0000, Jim Dixon wrote:

Third, even if you believe that they can really analyse data at 100 Mbps, this still doesn't give them the ability to handle more than one PoP with two DS3 connections. This is still orders of magnitude away from being able to handle a major site with multiple 2.5G connections, let alone all of the traffic handled by a major ISP. The original claim was that Carnivore could monitor all of an ISP's traffic. This isn't true for most ISPs.

Actually, "most" ISPs probably don't have more than two T3s or OC3s, because most ISPs are the 5000+ little ones; many only have a few T1s. But big ISPs are a different issue; any of the Tier 1 providers could melt a Pentium box if they directed a moderate fraction of their traffic at it. The question is how the carnivores tell the ISP's network what they're looking for, and how much cooperation they need from the ISP. Most ISP traffic is probably web, not email, and the email that's actually handled by ISPs (as opposed to just passing through) is handled by big mail servers that could perhaps be told to forward all mail for targeted accounts, since they need to do that level of indentification to handle the mail in the first place. For email, the big player is of course AOL, followed by specialized mail providers like iname.com, and the portal sites like Excite, Yahoo, and Hotmail, and a few ISPs like Earthlink/Mindspring. (The business has gotten sufficiently specialized that I'm not sure how many of those sites really provide their own service rather than outsourcing to specialists.) As with big ISPs, if they cooperate, the job's possible, and if they don't it's pretty intractable. If you know your target's IP address, it's a lot simpler - get the routing protocols to shove their traffic your way by advertising routes using OSPF, BGP, or whatever.

Qwest deployed 14,000 miles of fibre some years ago. This was packaged as conduits carrying 48 fiber pairs, each pair using wave division multiplexing to carry 8 to 16 optical channels, with each channel running at 10 Gbps. That's 160 Gbps per fiber, 7,680 Gbps per conduit. Qwest is one of many carriers. 160 Gbps over a fiber pair isn't state of the art. Qwest has many conduits.

They do have a nice _little_ network :-) Actually, most of that fiber isn't even lit yet, much less full, and much of their bandwidth isn't ISP traffic, it's private line sold to businesses or other ISPs. The last AT&T marketing hype I saw placed us as #2, well behind UUNET. The real bandwidth constraints are mainly the routers - most big ISPs use Cisco 12000 GSRs or products from Juniper or other emerging competitors, most of which like to call their products "terabit" routers because they have reasonably large backplane capacity. A totally different bandwidth segment is inside the big hosting centers - Exodus, Globalcenter, etc. Most of that's Gigabit Ether, with various brands of switches and routers, and an amazing fraction of their traffic stays in the building, between different colo customers. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639