Re: An attack on paypal --> secure UI for browsers
On Sat, Jun 14, 2003 at 03:30:47PM -0400, Sunder wrote: | Um, how's that agin? How does Ballmer and Gates force you, Adam Shostack | to run Microsoft Office? Did they put a gun to your head? Did they | manage to twist Congress's arms to put a gun to your head? | | Compatibility you say? Well, that's your choice. You can decide if it's | important enough to you and act accordingly. I personally think MSFT is | evil, and provides nothing but mediocre software. So I vote with my | wallet by not paying them for their junk and I won't buy upgrades of their | software if the previous versions do what I needed, and install Linux and | OpenBSD on new machines. Sure. And I'm glad you work with a small group of people who understand that you don't read their documents. After many years of refusal, I finally gave up. I work with lots of customers who expect documents in MS formats, and look at you askance for giving them anything else. You only get so many explanations before customers go elsewhere, and I chose not to spend them on this. Similarly, I could choose to speak to everyone I meet in, say, Russian. And some folks would understand. Others would walk away. So, you can argue that you're effectively required to speak English to do business in North America. I would argue that you're similarly required to use MS Office. | Yes, my work machine runs win2k, but I didn't pay for it, and I didn't | have much choice in it - actually I could either quit and find a new job | (really lots of fun in this economy) or reinstall Linux over it and live | with Open Office and other open tools or have paid for Crossover office | out of my pocket, etc. Wasn't worth the trouble and we already have a | site license for win2k + office 2k, so that's the path I went. Not my | money, the company's money. They chose to pay the Redmond Beast, so what | do I care? You'll be part of the problem when Nogsuccob is apon us, because the documents you create won't be readable in OpenOffice, and Crossover won't run. | So why do you feel it's required of you to either pay Microsoft for, or | pirate Office XP and Server 2003 and TCPA enabled junkware? What's so | important that you can't live without them. Office Nogsuccob will only interoperate with itself. Companies will end up deploying it to interact with other versions, not for any real feature. You don't like the word force, I suggest quitting all use of .DOC, .PPT, and .XLS formats. Please educate the world on how much better the alternatives are. Me, I'll pay my $200 to not bother today, and regret it tomorrow. And by the way, do you have a driver's license, or other state-issued ID card? Adam | On Sat, 14 Jun 2003, Adam Shostack wrote: | | > Well, sure. And no one forces me to run Microsoft office, either, | > except Microsoft's monoploy. And when the document format can phone | > home to prevent piracy or openoffice from running, no one will be | > 'obligating' me to pay monopoly rents to Microsoft. | | <SNIP> | | > In the same way, no one forces me to have a drivers license. But its | > damned hard living life without one. | > | <SNIP> | | -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume
Oh get over it. There are other formats. You ever heard of XML? HTML? RTF? If the day comes where MS Office DRM only works with MS Office DRM, how many people will switch to it? If your company is willing to switch to it, then they'll give you a PC with it on it. If they don't, then they can't expect you to interact with them via such formats and can't require you to do so. You sound like someone's holding a gun to your head and requiring you to have MS Office. Either way, you can ask them to export to other document formats which you can read. Even now Office will export to HTML for example which is readable by Mozilla and other browsers. Microsoft is not the DMV. You don't need to use their software. And no, I will never be part of your problem because the documents I will create for non work use will be made with Open Office or will be plain text, html, or xml files. If I'm required to use a DRM'ed Office for work, then fine, my company owns those documents anyway and they can do whatever the fuck they like with them either way. It doesn't matter to me at all -- it's their call, it's their company, it's their documents. But, for personal use, I won't buy any upgrades or new Microsoft software. End of story. Either way, how much a revolt do you think there will be if Microsoft decides to lock down their tools (such as word) to the point where they can no longer export to HTML, plain text, RTF should the author wish it to do so and provides whatever passphrases or ID's needed to unlock the document and export it out? Who would buy such a dog of a product? Do you think businesses are so stupid that they'd put up with a product that jails them in? Get real son, you're howling at the moon! On one hand you're bitching that you have to use Microsoft software on the other you're complaining that I'm using it while I'm telling you I don't want to and don't care to and won't upgrade to it. You want to make a difference? Go ahead, wipe every bit of Microsoft wares off all your machines and burn the CD's you've installed them from. Go all open source and show others the right way. At least I'd have some respect for you for voting with your wallet and practicing what you preach. Right now all you're doing is bitching that you're forced to buy and use Microsoft Office. I say that's bullshit, and you know it. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :25Kliters anthrax, 38K liters botulinum toxin, 500 tons of /|\ \|/ :sarin, mustard and VX gas, mobile bio-weapons labs, nukular /\|/\ <--*-->:weapons.. Reasons for war on Iraq - GWB 2003-01-28 speech. \/|\/ /|\ :Found to date: 0. Cost of war: $800,000,000,000 USD. \|/ + v + : The look on Sadam's face - priceless! --------_sunder_@_sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Sat, 14 Jun 2003, Adam Shostack wrote:
Sure. And I'm glad you work with a small group of people who understand that you don't read their documents. After many years of refusal, I finally gave up. I work with lots of customers who expect documents in MS formats, and look at you askance for giving them anything else. You only get so many explanations before customers go elsewhere, and I chose not to spend them on this. Similarly, I could choose to speak to everyone I meet in, say, Russian. And some folks would understand. Others would walk away. So, you can argue that you're effectively required to speak English to do business in North America. I would argue that you're similarly required to use MS Office.
You'll be part of the problem when Nogsuccob is apon us, because the documents you create won't be readable in OpenOffice, and Crossover won't run.
Office Nogsuccob will only interoperate with itself. Companies will end up deploying it to interact with other versions, not for any real feature.
You don't like the word force, I suggest quitting all use of .DOC, .PPT, and .XLS formats. Please educate the world on how much better the alternatives are. Me, I'll pay my $200 to not bother today, and regret it tomorrow.
And by the way, do you have a driver's license, or other state-issued ID card?
participants (2)
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Adam Shostack -
Sunder