Re: "If you DON'T use encryption, you help the terrorists win"
Tim May wrote... "But silliness about "if everybody used encryption, then..." is just that, silliness." You seem to miss my point here (and in general), and since this is probably the closest area in which we agree, I'd suggest it's worthwhile examining this. Let's first of all agree that the proliferation of crypto is a good thing. If crypto is rarely used, then MY usage of it is actually almost worse (depending on context) than using it. More than that, increased use of crypto implies increased cost of monitoring. The $$$ nature of the assymmetry is mirrored precisely by the calculational assymetry. Ideally, it seems to me that this should be exploited. "If only everyone" is I agree largely pointless in and of itself. However, when coupled to some fairly easy and obvious applications of "greed", the potential results are interesting. Want an example? We now see file trading, messaging, and possibly even IP telephony occuring in P2P networks. Some of the P2Ps will be/are encrypted...a primitive form of "blacknet" you might say. Couple this app with popular notions of "protecting us from the terrorists" and you may have wildfire. That's the goal: wildfire. You're problem is that you don't realize that crypto is no longer a technological issue now. It's now a social and marketing one. The fact that "Tyler Durden" actually has little of major insight to say completely misses the point. Ideally, "Tyler Durden" is a generic, popular figure that embodies virulent, 'stoopid' popularity. Tyler Durden is not an intellectual: He's basically a dumb punk and a rabblerouser. Ideally, he's every man. He's everything you've always been afraid of, but he is precisely the one who can set you free. -TD
From: Tim May <timcmay@got.net> To: cypherpunks@lne.com Subject: Re: "If you DON'T use encryption, you help the terrorists win" Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:40:51 -0800
On Monday, October 27, 2003, at 08:50 AM, Tyler Durden wrote:
"Basically they say things like "If you think the government can't break all the encryption schemes that we have, you're nuts." This guy was a math major too, so he understands the principles of crypto."
Basically, the answer was hinted at by another poster.
For anyone who doesn't trust the government, the point to make is that crypto use is currently a red flag. Last year I went through great pains on this list to point out that right now the gubmint probably doesn't even need to break most encrypted messages in order to know something's up. This is only possible because outside of a coporate context few individuals use encryption.
If everybody uses encryption, then it matters MUCH less if the government can break any one message. What costs us pennies to encrypt may cost them thousands to break. That's the assymmetry we asyms can exploit. That's where we need to depart from a Tim May lone wolf approach to your friendly, smiling America-loving flag-waving cypherpunks: "If you don't use encryption then you help the terrorists win".
I have no patience with "If _EVERYBODY_ did foo, then...." arguments.
Contrary to what many of the newcomers (last 5 years) here have argued, crypto anarchy was never about converting the world to one true political system--it was, and is, about those motivated to do so to find ways to drop out of the system and find ways to sabotage the various politicians and socialists and minorities using government to steal from them.
Finding ways to destroy large nests of socialists and minority welfare mutants is of course consistent with this individualist approach.
But silliness about "if everybody used encryption, then..." is just that, silliness.
"First we convert the world to our viewpoint" is an empty philosophy.
"Tyler Durden," you have never shown a trace of sophistication or cleverness in the several months you have been on this list.
--Tim May
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HI,
TD wrote- that, increased use of crypto implies increased cost of monitoring.
If a larger population starts using cryptography, we can compare it to U.S mail. The govt. any way can't go through all the snail mails due to its sheer volume. They rely on other methods to detect and nullify terror threats. Even if every one started using encryption, the govt will not spend any money to decrypt all the messages. The govt will use other mechanisms(intelligece) to detect which cipher text is worth breaking. More people using cryptography is good for the crypto community, in terms of dollars,interest and development in this particular area. Sarath. --- Tyler Durden <camera_lumina@hotmail.com> wrote:
Tim May wrote...
"But silliness about "if everybody used encryption, then..." is just that, silliness."
You seem to miss my point here (and in general), and since this is probably the closest area in which we agree, I'd suggest it's worthwhile examining this.
Let's first of all agree that the proliferation of crypto is a good thing. If crypto is rarely used, then MY usage of it is actually almost worse (depending on context) than using it. More than that, increased use of crypto implies increased cost of monitoring. The $$$ nature of the assymmetry is mirrored precisely by the calculational assymetry. Ideally, it seems to me that this should be exploited.
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The biggest hurdle and the thing that will have the most effect is to have every MTA out there turn on Start TLS. It won't provide a big enhancement in terms of security at the ISP level, but it will blind the global content search engines everywhere. Except, of course, at those ISP's already infected by carnivore boxes - which at least aren't allowed by law to capture all traffic, but I wouldn't put money that they'd follow it. So the first course of action is to convince MTA authors everywhere to enable and turn this on. Later, they could drop support for non-TLS traffic. It could also help against spamming somehow, as it will cost the spammer a few more CPU cycles. (But this will be a very weak deterrent against spam.) The next hurdle will be to get Microsoft Outlook to ship with PGP - it'll be a very very cold day in hell for that to happen. :) So, we'll keep dreaming and wishing. Certainly, if it does, only fools will trust it as secure. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :25Kliters anthrax, 38K liters botulinum toxin, 500 tons of /|\ \|/ :sarin, mustard and VX gas, mobile bio-weapons labs, nukular /\|/\ <--*-->:weapons.. Reasons for war on Iraq - GWB 2003-01-28 speech. \/|\/ /|\ :Found to date: 0. Cost of war: $800,000,000,000 USD. \|/ + v + : The look on Sadam's face - priceless! --------_sunder_@_sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Tue, 28 Oct 2003, Sarad AV wrote:
HI,
TD wrote- that, increased use of crypto implies increased cost of monitoring.
If a larger population starts using cryptography, we can compare it to U.S mail. The govt. any way can't go through all the snail mails due to its sheer volume. They rely on other methods to detect and nullify terror threats. Even if every one started using encryption, the govt will not spend any money to decrypt all the messages. The govt will use other mechanisms(intelligece) to detect which cipher text is worth breaking. More people using cryptography is good for the crypto community, in terms of dollars,interest and development in this particular area.
participants (3)
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Sarad AV -
Sunder -
Tyler Durden