And another one bites the dust, another one down, another one down

Khoder bin Hakkin

21 Oct 2001 21 Oct '01

5:33 p.m.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011021/ts/attacks_anthrax.html WASHINGTON (AP) - A District of Columbia postal worker is ``gravely ill'' with inhaled anthrax, leading government officials to order testing for as many as 2,300 more mail employees, Mayor Anthony Williams said Sunday.

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Karsten M. Self

21 Oct 21 Oct

6:42 p.m.

New subject: And another one bites the dust, another one down, another one down

gpg: Invalid passphrase; please try again ... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 02:25:35PM -0700, Khoder bin Hakkin (hakkin@sarin.com) wrote:

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http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011021/ts/attacks_anthrax.html

WASHINGTON (AP) - A District of Columbia postal worker is ``gravely ill'' with inhaled anthrax, leading government officials to order testing for as many as 2,300 more mail employees, Mayor Anthony Williams said Sunday.

Further: Frist, R-Tenn., said the man must have been exposed to an intense form of the bacterium, strong enough to move through his respiratory track and deep into his lungs. This leads one to question the descriptions of anthrax as "weaponized" and "non-weaponized", particularly as there are several dimensions of weaponization. The lesser is spore size, with 5 micron being the preferred form for inducing inhalation anthrax. The greater is antibiotic resistance, and it appears that this is the criterion on which statements of "non-weaponized anthrax" are being made. Truth seems to be that resistance is secondary to spore size given the difficulty of treating advanced cases of inhalation anthrax. My suggestion to the press would be to disaggregate the term "weaponized" to its components: inhalable, and antibiotic resistant. This provides the public with more useful information: the bacterium is or is not a grave infection threat (inhalable), and the bacterium is or is not treatable (resistant). This is actionable information: inhalable, but nonresistant, anthrax means that individuals should be aware of respiratory illness symptoms and submit for early diagnosis and/or treatment. The media hype also tends to ignore the fact that anthrax is, in the forms detected to date, largely treatable. Gross attempts at containment (expensive) are less advisable than identification and treatment of exposed individuals (less expensive). Peace. - -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE700SJOEeIn1XyubARAp/3AJwIuIEFipM2Fp7SvnMuimaI1y0qPwCePksT syXlLQQ5W0uJE5yIDXHq830= =HJy+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

David Honig

9:32 p.m.

New subject: And another one bites the dust, another one down, another one down

At 02:56 PM 10/21/01 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:

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The media hype also tends to ignore the fact that anthrax is, in the forms detected to date, largely treatable. Gross attempts at containment (expensive) are less advisable than identification and treatment of exposed individuals (less expensive).

Once the person has enough symptoms to seek treatment, I think they're toast. We'll see. Maybe all USPO workers will be given 60 days of Cipro. If they're the only ones to survive, the species is fucked.

Karsten M. Self

10 p.m.

New subject: Instant Anthrax...test (was: Re: And another one bites the dust...)

gpg: Invalid passphrase; please try again ... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 06:02:17PM -0700, David Honig (honig@sprynet.com) wrote:

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At 02:56 PM 10/21/01 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:

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The media hype also tends to ignore the fact that anthrax is, in the forms detected to date, largely treatable. Gross attempts at containment (expensive) are less advisable than identification and treatment of exposed individuals (less expensive).

Once the person has enough symptoms to seek treatment, I think they're toast. We'll see. Maybe all USPO workers will be given 60 days of Cipro. If they're the only ones to survive, the species is fucked.

You clearly can't to wait for individuals to be symptomatic, you have to detect eposures. The point, however, is that exposure itself isn't a high risk given appropriate, timely, treatment. The Economist is now reporting on "instant screening": http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=821937 Biological weapons Testing times Oct 18th 2001 From The Economist print edition Instant screening for anthrax is now possible [...] Unfortunately, the two established methods for identifying anthrax and other microbial contaminants involve time-consuming laboratory techniques. One is to try to culture an organism from the powder, and then subject it to a barrage of chemical tests to identify it. The other is to amplify and identify its DNA . The first takes days, and the second is a sophisticated technique that few laboratories are yet able to manage. So, even if the result is negative, chaos may already have been caused and the act of terrorism rewarded. A better solution would be to screen on the spot. And technology to do this is now available. It uses a test strip, costing $20, that looks like a pregnancy-detection kit. The Guardian Bio-Threat Alert System is a joint development by Alexeter Technologies, based in Wheeling, Illinois, and Tetracore, of Gaithersburg, Maryland. It takes 15 minutes to react to the presence of anthrax, and it is the only rapid field test now available. [...] Apologies if this was already posted here. Search of my inbox doesn't turn it up. Peace. - -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE703eMOEeIn1XyubARAkv8AJsGXp1TQp8Zy+CPWNLrtb34BeJBdQCfb470 tehhCnLmo1UbvUhPFE7o4Z0= =cjrt -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Tim May

22 Oct 22 Oct

2:09 a.m.

New subject: Karsten M. Self shows himself to be clueless, again

On Sunday, October 21, 2001, at 06:34 PM, Karsten M. Self wrote:

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gpg: Invalid passphrase; please try again ... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash

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Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iD8DBQE703eMOEeIn1XyubARAkv8AJsGXp1TQp8Zy+CPWNLrtb34BeJBdQCfb470 tehhCnLmo1UbvUhPFE7o4Z0= =cjrt -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Jesus fucking Christ, if you're going to subject us to all of your PGP, GPG, GnuPG1.0.6 crud, at least get your fucking password straight, you fucking moron. "gpg: Invalid passphrase: please try again..." Fucking creep. Where's that sniper rifle, Bob? --Tim May "The great object is that every man be armed and everyone who is able may have a gun." --Patrick Henry "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." --Alexander Hamilton

Karsten M. Self

2:50 a.m.

New subject: Karsten M. Self shows himself to be clueless, again

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 10:26:55PM -0700, Tim May (tcmay@got.net) wrote:

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On Sunday, October 21, 2001, at 06:34 PM, Karsten M. Self wrote:

...
gpg: Invalid passphrase; please try again ... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

<...>

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Jesus fucking Christ, if you're going to subject us to all of your PGP, GPG, GnuPG1.0.6 crud, at least get your fucking password straight, you fucking moron.

"gpg: Invalid passphrase: please try again..."

Fucking creep. Where's that sniper rifle, Bob?

Dammit Tim, this is *my* cornfield. So, let's get this straight: - RFC 2015 encoded, striped by lne: fucking moron. - Clearsigned: fucking moron. Hey: Tim's internally consistent! Peace. - -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE708DsOEeIn1XyubARAviYAKCCjmxkxecXYyP9wv+ahehp8z1dOQCeNSYO BuBAhI2nsTt7vzi+NhHt/F4= =K980 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Tim May

21 Oct 21 Oct

11:35 p.m.

New subject: And another one bites the dust, another one down, another one down

On Sunday, October 21, 2001, at 06:02 PM, David Honig wrote:

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At 02:56 PM 10/21/01 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:

...
The media hype also tends to ignore the fact that anthrax is, in the forms detected to date, largely treatable. Gross attempts at containment (expensive) are less advisable than identification and treatment of exposed individuals (less expensive).

Once the person has enough symptoms to seek treatment, I think they're toast. We'll see. Maybe all USPO workers will be given 60 days of Cipro. If they're the only ones to survive, the species is fucked.

I saw the Sturgeon General explaining that "we now have better treatment methods." I thought he might have been right, inasmuch as we had heard that Victim #2, in Florida, was mending nicely from inhalation anthrax. Ah, but it now looks like #2 was not a real case of inhalational anthrax. (I don't count the half dozen subcutaneous cases, or any of the "one spore was picked up on a swab" cases.) It looks like this Maryland case is a real Case #2. If he survives, it'll mean the Sturgeon General was right to say we now can handle anthrax. But I expect he's a goner. --Tim May "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -- Nietzsche

Bill Stewart

22 Oct 22 Oct

2:43 a.m.

New subject: And another one bites the dust, another one down, another one down

At 08:30 PM 10/21/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote:

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I saw the Sturgeon General explaining that "we now have better treatment methods."

Depends a lot on which strain it is - some varieties of anthrax are treatable by penicillin and some other common antibiotics, while others are resistent and need Cipro. Unfortunately, telling them apart takes a couple of days of culturing, during which time your patient dies if you guessed wrong, but apparently the penicillins do a much better job when they work without being anywhere near as nasty for the patient.

Tim May

2:48 a.m.

New subject: And another one bites the dust, another one down, another one down

On Sunday, October 21, 2001, at 11:30 PM, Bill Stewart wrote:

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At 08:30 PM 10/21/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote:

...
I saw the Sturgeon General explaining that "we now have better treatment methods."

Depends a lot on which strain it is - some varieties of anthrax are treatable by penicillin and some other common antibiotics, while others are resistent and need Cipro. Unfortunately, telling them apart takes a couple of days of culturing, during which time your patient dies if you guessed wrong, but apparently the penicillins do a much better job when they work without being anywhere near as nasty for the patient.

No, this is not the difference. --Tim May --Tim May "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler

Tim May

1:47 p.m.

New subject: And another one bites the dust, another one down, another one down

On Sunday, October 21, 2001, at 08:30 PM, Tim May wrote:

...

On Sunday, October 21, 2001, at 06:02 PM, David Honig wrote:

...
Once the person has enough symptoms to seek treatment, I think they're toast. We'll see. Maybe all USPO workers will be given 60 days of Cipro. If they're the only ones to survive, the species is fucked.

It looks like this Maryland case is a real Case #2. If he survives, it'll mean the Sturgeon General was right to say we now can handle anthrax. But I expect he's a goner.

Looks like the "toast" and "goner" comments are right on...as expected. I've been watching a press conference of D.C. politicos, mayor and company, on CNN. Looks like several inhalational anthrax cases confirmed, and *two deaths* of postal workers over the weekend with "suspicious" symptoms and test results. (Don't know if one of them is the postal worker already diagnosed with inhalational anthrax since last Friday...it's possible this is one of the people. Sounds like the two deaths were of others, though, with anthrax only being suspected post mortem.) Expect more chaos, then. And more police state measures. --Tim May "That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." --Samuel Adams

Eric Cordian

3:23 p.m.

New subject: Additional Anthrax Deaths Suspected

Tim wrote:

...

Looks like the "toast" and "goner" comments are right on...as expected.

...

I've been watching a press conference of D.C. politicos, mayor and company, on CNN. Looks like several inhalational anthrax cases confirmed, and *two deaths* of postal workers over the weekend with "suspicious" symptoms and test results.

...

(Don't know if one of them is the postal worker already diagnosed with inhalational anthrax since last Friday...it's possible this is one of the people. Sounds like the two deaths were of others, though, with anthrax only being suspected post mortem.)

Yes, this is very worrisome. I've been waiting for the day when we have less anthrax cases than the day before, and apparently we've not seen the peak yet. The guy in Florida is supposedly doing well, despite surgery to insert various breathing tubes a while back. Congress has now decided not to repopen for business on Tuesday. These anthraxed buildings may be a writeoff. I doubt people will volunteer to go back into them, even after happy-fun-decontamination. American Media is selling and relocating. I wonder how many suspicious pulmonary deaths have flown under the radar to date, because they weren't correctly diagnosed. More bad news will probably follow in the weeks to come. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"

Karsten M. Self

8:34 p.m.

New subject: Additional Anthrax Deaths Suspected

on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:14:29PM -0700, Eric Cordian (emc@artifact.psychedelic.net) wrote:

...

Tim wrote:

...
Looks like the "toast" and "goner" comments are right on...as expected.

...
I've been watching a press conference of D.C. politicos, mayor and company, on CNN. Looks like several inhalational anthrax cases confirmed, and *two deaths* of postal workers over the weekend with "suspicious" symptoms and test results.

...
(Don't know if one of them is the postal worker already diagnosed with inhalational anthrax since last Friday...it's possible this is one of the people. Sounds like the two deaths were of others, though, with anthrax only being suspected post mortem.)

Yes, this is very worrisome. I've been waiting for the day when we have less anthrax cases than the day before, and apparently we've not seen the peak yet.

antrax: n. AKA mailsorter's disease (Future dictionary entry) There is a vaccine for anthrax. It's not generally distributed, though military and vetinary personnel may receive it. The CDC's fact sheet states that it requires six doses (three at two week intervals, then six months), protects against cutaneous and inhalation anthrax, and requires an annual booster. There are some risks of the vaccine, though exposure risks are higher, the worst is a sever allergic reaction, observed in less than 1 in 100,000 doses. Might it make sense to vaccinate mailroom personnel? Like high-end routers on the 'Net, this is where the current delivery mechanism is bottlenecked. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]

Karsten M. Self

8:33 p.m.

New subject: Additional Anthrax Deaths Suspected

on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 02:36:58PM -0700, Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

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The CDC's fact sheet

Memo to self: include URLs. http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/VIS/vis-anthrax.pdf Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]

Eric Cordian

8:33 p.m.

New subject: Additional Anthrax Deaths Suspected

Karsten writes:

...

There is a vaccine for anthrax. It's not generally distributed, though military and vetinary personnel may receive it.

The vaccine has not been proven safe and effective, nor released for use in the general population. The military has to take it because they are ordered to. I believe it was mentioned that the anthrax currently being mailed is the "Ames" strain, first discovered in Ames, Iowa, and of interest to researchers because the vaccine is spectacularly ineffective against it. It does, however, respond to antibiotics, providing you are diagnosed before it is too late. Diseases caused by bacilli are generally nasty. Leprosy and TB being the two other well-known examples. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"

Declan McCullagh

8:34 p.m.

New subject: Additional Anthrax Deaths Suspected

On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 02:52:52PM -0700, Eric Cordian wrote:

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The vaccine has not been proven safe and effective, nor released for use in the general population. The military has to take it because they are ordered to.

And sometimes not even then. From something I wrote in 1999: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,18485,00.html The note and others like it have spread like the plague. A group of 23 sailors on the USS Theodore Roosevelt aircraft carrier refused to take their shots and were demoted, the Pentagon said Thursday. The day before, the Air Force kicked out a recalcitrant airman. Some officers have resigned rather than take the vaccine. Officials blame the Internet for infecting the rank and file. At a recent press briefing, Pentagon spokesman Mike Doubleday decried "misinformation which is available to people on various Web sites regarding anthrax, and also the anthrax vaccine." -Declan

David Honig

9:08 p.m.

New subject: Additional Anthrax Deaths Suspected

At 06:10 PM 10/22/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:

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On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 02:52:52PM -0700, Eric Cordian wrote:

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The vaccine has not been proven safe and effective, nor released for use in the general population. The military has to take it because they are ordered to.

And sometimes not even then.

What happens if you're knocked up (in the American sense) and get vaccinated? Some vaccines are very contraindicated in that condition. How about the immunocompromised, elderly, young? The .mil pop is very different from the general one. As for liability/paranoia issues, just look at the autistism folks who blame some vaccine instead of genes (because autism becomes noticable around the time of that vaccine, and the genetic evidence is only recently being discovered). Maybe that's not so important since you can't sue your gov't.

Declan McCullagh

8:34 p.m.

New subject: And another one bites the dust, another one down, another one down

On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 10:34:37AM -0700, Tim May wrote:

...

I've been watching a press conference of D.C. politicos, mayor and company, on CNN. Looks like several inhalational anthrax cases confirmed, and *two deaths* of postal workers over the weekend with "suspicious" symptoms and test results.

I just got back to DC today (was out of state for the weekend), and I'm sad to admit that out of all the 400K+ population cities I can imagine, Washington is particularly ill-suited to deal with anthrax, let alone prepare a reasonable response. The mail arrived today, but I fear that packages (I'm expecting a 1 GB IBM microdrive to be shipped via the post) will be delayed for a while. -Declan

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participants (7)

Bill Stewart
David Honig
Declan McCullagh
Eric Cordian
Karsten M. Self
Khoder bin Hakkin
Tim May