Re: Idea: The ultimate CD/DVD auditing tool
Tim May wrote...
Most so-called high end tube amps do in fact sound different, perhaps "better," perhaps not. This is of course because tubes are usually rich in odd-order harmonics. That $4000 Krell tube amp is actually _coloring_ the sound. So much for 20-bit DACs in the signal source: the amp is altering the sound at about the 6th or 8th or whatever most significant bit.
A couple of corrections, then the comment. First is that tubes boost the even order harmonics, making the sound much richer and fuller sounding. Also, the Krell is digital, not tube. But your point is correct, but also well-known within audiophile circles. In fact, single-end triode style tube amps (which hit the market about 10 years ago) have really rotten measureables, but they have continued to grow in popularity because of the the allegedly "live/lush" sound. (Another odd thing about them is that they have extremely low output powers--12W, 8W and 6W are common!) Everyone knows they are basically nearly random tone-control gizmos, but no one cares at this point. As for 24/96 (or 24/192), like I said there are real engineering reasons for doing this, but in the end there's not much reason to argue if you haven't heard. Go listen to a standard CD played on an upsampling machine and you will know in no uncertain terms that the sound is considerably better/fuller/realler. (A hint as to why can be seen when you look a square wave reproduced in 16/22 vs 24/96.) As for audiophile voodoo there's a lot out there, but there's a pretty easy way to differentiate voodoo from real (though 'inexplicable') high-end stuff. The voodoo dissappears within a year or two, but the real stuff keeps going. -TD A PS about double-blind: There's been lots of them done, some confirming audiophile expectations some contradicting. Some of the disparity is due to who the blindees are: high-end listening is a skill that is basically self-taught. Some of the high-end tweeks have differences that are not discernable to nonGolden ears (and some tweaks are obviously pure snakeoil). _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, Tyler Durden wrote:
Tim May wrote...
Most so-called high end tube amps do in fact sound different, perhaps "better," perhaps not. This is of course because tubes are usually rich in odd-order harmonics. That $4000 Krell tube amp is actually _coloring_ the sound. So much for 20-bit DACs in the signal source: the amp is altering the sound at about the 6th or 8th or whatever most significant bit.
A couple of corrections, then the comment. First is that tubes boost the even order harmonics, making the sound much richer and fuller sounding.
Actually it depends on the type of tube, triodes as compared to a pentode for example 'color' a signal in different ways. There are also geometry issues that filter the harmonics in different ways for different types of tubes. So a blanket statement such as 'all tubes boost even order harmonics' is gibberish. Further, to correct Tim's audio bullshit, -EVERYTHING- colors the music. There is -NOTHING- in the pipe from initial performance to end user experience that is 'perfectly flat'. Unless you were there when it was done you'll -never- get close to what actually happened. Changing the speakers will change the music, putting fiberglass in the cabinet changes the music, changing the cables from Copper to Gold makes a audible difference in some cases. Another fine point to make in regard to things like distortion and THD, considering the average performance amp is about 3-5x -higher- in THD (for example) the distinction between audio performance above a certain threashold (that is primarily listener dependent) is a waste (and really a tad dellusional).
Also, the Krell is digital, not tube.
Which means it colors it differently is all. YMMV...big surprise.
But your point is correct, but also well-known within audiophile circles. In fact, single-end triode style tube amps (which hit the market about 10 years ago) have really rotten measureables, but they have continued to grow in popularity because of the the allegedly "live/lush" sound.
First off single ended Triodes have been around a lot(!) more than 10 years. Secondly the term you want is 'warm' in reference to a tube amp, it's been around since at least the 50's. Using a term like 'live' to describe a sound simply means somebody has never compared (for example) a Fender to a Marshall amp and understood why the same 'live' performance sounds so different (and you can use the same speaker stack for either head).
As for 24/96 (or 24/192), like I said there are real engineering reasons for doing this, but in the end there's not much reason to argue if you haven't heard. Go listen to a standard CD played on an upsampling machine and you will know in no uncertain terms that the sound is considerably better/fuller/realler. (A hint as to why can be seen when you look a square wave reproduced in 16/22 vs 24/96.)
You mean the wave is actually more 'square' because the higher sampling rate better matches the original signal?....Duh.
As for audiophile voodoo there's a lot out there, but there's a pretty easy way to differentiate voodoo from real (though 'inexplicable') high-end stuff. The voodoo dissappears within a year or two, but the real stuff keeps going.
As somebody who has been involved in audio (both listening and performance) for many years (30+) that is simple bullshit. The Voodoo that sells keeps on going, and going, and going,...
A PS about double-blind: There's been lots of them done, some confirming audiophile expectations some contradicting. Some of the disparity is due to who the blindees are: high-end listening is a skill that is basically self-taught.
Bullshit, you're born with good ears or your not. There is not a single thing one can do to change that. If you have good ears and train them then you get what you pay for. If you got bad ears, pick another field to work in.
Some of the high-end tweeks have differences that are not discernable to nonGolden ears (and some tweaks are obviously pure snakeoil).
And a -lot- of those golden ear differences are just ego or marketing hype. -- ____________________________________________________________________ We are all interested in the future for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives. Criswell, "Plan 9 from Outer Space" ravage@ssz.com jchoate@open-forge.org www.ssz.com www.open-forge.org --------------------------------------------------------------------
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Jim Choate -
Tyler Durden