Re: U.S. in violation of Geneva convention?
Tim, sorry it was unclear from my post whom I was referring to. It was "James A. Donald". I did put his message id in a reply-to header. Jim Dixon wrote:
Hitler, you mean? Or did you have Milosevic in mind?
No what I meant was what IF somehow Bush or Blaire or some other high ranking coalition politician were captured by Iraq during the war and was treated in the same way. I can only presume you would support Saddam's soldiers checking Bush for lice then. You are also utterly missing the point and you are one pretty good example of how "the mob" are thinking. EVERYONE, including Saddam, Pol Pot or whattever should be treated in accordance with the laws by us who call ourselves the free democratic part of the world. Then they shall stand trial. A fair trial and being represented by lawyers. What would be more satisfying for the critics of U.S. than to see U.S. not being able to get its act together and instead conducting itself in a manner inconsistent with international law during this rather criticl phase of the Iraqi campaign. Mark my words, U.S. will be in regret later. Jim Dixon, you also wrote some half trouths on the subject of Palestinians and the support they received. You should read up on this subject. Saddam also has a history of building up edicational institutions and so on. He recived awards by U.N. earlier on for his wellfare programs and the development Iraq was gaining. Anyone can check this up, just call U.N. in NY and you'll receive a few references I'm sure. What I mean by this is not to defend him in any way but I feel that this rewriting of history and propaganda is serving noone in the long run. If you believe that 100% of the arab world in their harts and minds hate Saddam you're wring. Very wrong. Steve Schear: thanks for your interesting post! Some people need to learn more of that. I also noticed on the news that CIA was conducting the questioning of Saddam. (Did anyone expect anything else?!) I guess this also means that U.S. now will join all dicatators and awful beasts in performing various forms of abuse and torture on him. Iraq formally removed the death penalty just a few weeks ago. Regardless of what you feel about that in general, I think it's embarrasing once again to see U.S. almost "lobbying" against the Iraqis to have them not honouring their own laws to satisfy Bush on this specific issue! Remember there's only one reason for Bush wanting to see Saddam dead and that he does. And that is the fact that "Saddam tried to kill my papa" as Bush put it, I've seen it in interviews myself. Jim Dixon, going through your post again I see yet another half trough, you write
The people on this list are less.. public humiliation and hanging of Americans..
And you seem to forget that U.S. was in bed with Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war era and that there was a friendly tone then. U.S. officials met with Iraqi, I think that Tareq Azis met with Reagan even? Your whole post is based on the feeling that we're gonna do what they did to us. In doing so you have manifested what has been written here about "gasing into the abyss" and so on. You have become what you hunt. Be ware. It is my opinion that we shall distinguish ourselves from these bastards by not committing their deeds ourselves. You seem not to agree on that. And that is a major mistake.
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Nomen Nescio wrote:
Your whole post is based on the feeling that we're gonna do what they did to us.
There were at least three points made in my post: * The treatment of Saddam seems well within the rules laid down by the Geneva conventions. * On the other hand, he and his government routinely violated the Geneva conventions and encouraged others to do so. * The US and the UK should step back and let Iraqis decide what to do with Saddam. Nowhere did I advocate gassing villages, rape, murder, torture, invasion of neighboring countries for all that good loot, setting off explosives in crowds, nor even the beatings handed out to captured British pilots.
In doing so you have manifested what has been written here about "gasing into the abyss" and so on.
I have gazed into the abyss and seen a man having his teeth checked and getting a haircut. :-| -- Jim Dixon jdd@dixons.org tel +44 117 982 0786 mobile +44 797 373 7881 http://jxcl.sourceforge.net Java unit test coverage http://xlattice.sourceforge.net p2p communications infrastructure
Truly great.
In doing so you have manifested what has been written here about "gasing into the abyss" and so on.
On 17 Dec 2003 at 8:36, Jim Dixon wrote:
I have gazed into the abyss and seen a man having his teeth checked and getting a haircut. :-|
-- Jim Dixon jdd@dixons.org tel +44 117 982 0786 mobile +44 797 373 7881 http://jxcl.sourceforge.net Java unit test coverage http://xlattice.sourceforge.net p2p communications infrastructure
Jim Dixon wrote:
I have gazed into the abyss and seen a man having his teeth checked and getting a haircut. :-|
And how would you have felt to be the one who got your teeth checked and get a haircut with the whole world watching? M.
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Michael Kalus wrote:
I have gazed into the abyss and seen a man having his teeth checked and getting a haircut. :-|
And how would you have felt to be the one who got your teeth checked and get a haircut with the whole world watching?
You have omitted a bit. A better question might be: "how would you have felt if you had looted an entire country for 30 years, invaded two others, annihilated any who objected, butchered hundreds of thousands of people, dispatched assasins after enemies abroad, laughed at anyone who objected -- and then had been submitted to what appeared to be a polite and conscientious public dental exam and haircut?" Damn lucky, to be honest. -- Jim Dixon jdd@dixons.org tel +44 117 982 0786 mobile +44 797 373 7881 http://jxcl.sourceforge.net Java unit test coverage http://xlattice.sourceforge.net p2p communications infrastructure
Jim Dixon wrote:
And how would you have felt to be the one who got your teeth checked and get a haircut with the whole world watching?
You have omitted a bit. A better question might be: "how would you have felt if you had looted an entire country for 30 years, invaded two others, annihilated any who objected, butchered hundreds of thousands of people, dispatched assasins after enemies abroad, laughed at anyone who objected -- and then had been submitted to what appeared to be a polite and conscientious public dental exam and haircut?"
Damn lucky, to be honest.
No I did not omit this little bit. This is not the question. Guilt or not guilt is not (supposely) decided when captured but in a court of law. You remember, "Justice" the thing the US supposely is standing for? Whatever he did before, it does not matter at this point. At this very moment the people who have to abide are the victors and that means the US Government (and thus the US Military). Two wrongs still don't make a right. Michael
On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 08:41:07PM +0000, Jim Dixon wrote:
You have omitted a bit. A better question might be: "how would you have felt if you had looted an entire country for 30 years, invaded two others, annihilated any who objected, butchered hundreds of thousands of people, dispatched assasins after enemies abroad, laughed at anyone who objected
You don't really know that any of that is true, you only know what the current message is from the Ministry of Truth. Twenty years ago they were applauding him and giving him bio/chem/nuc weapons. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com
You wrote on Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 03:19:43PM -0500:
Jim Dixon wrote:
I have gazed into the abyss and seen a man having his teeth checked and getting a haircut. :-|
And how would you have felt to be the one who got your teeth checked and get a haircut with the whole world watching?
If I had record like Saddam's on me? Gee, I'd be real happy I wasn't shot on the spot, or maybe cruelly tortured and then shot, the way I'd behaved to people I'd captured. Or maybe torn into pieces by a shrieking mob. Instead of doing any of that, they check my teeth and give me a haircut in front of the cameras? Boo fucking hoo. I'd be real happy about millions of bleeding hearts all over the world jerking their knees in unison, ready to cry a fucking ocean over this unbelievably cruel haircut and medical check-up I'm being given. Fucking tools. -- avva
Anatoly Vorobey wrote:
If I had record like Saddam's on me?
Gee, I'd be real happy I wasn't shot on the spot, or maybe cruelly tortured and then shot, the way I'd behaved to people I'd captured. Or maybe torn into pieces by a shrieking mob.
Instead of doing any of that, they check my teeth and give me a haircut in front of the cameras? Boo fucking hoo. I'd be real happy about millions of bleeding hearts all over the world jerking their knees in unison, ready to cry a fucking ocean over this unbelievably cruel haircut and medical check-up I'm being given. Fucking tools.
Nice, but the problem still remains: At this point it doesn't matter what he has done (or we say he has done). This is not a punishment. "Innocent until proofen guilty" anyone? This is the basis for the "enlightened" western society, no? M.
On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 04:46:51PM -0500, Michael Kalus wrote:
Nice, but the problem still remains: At this point it doesn't matter what he has done (or we say he has done). This is not a punishment. "Innocent until proofen guilty" anyone? This is the basis for the "enlightened" western society, no?
This isn't a ski mask burglary. We KNOW Saddam ruled Iraq. We KNOW what crimes were committed. Simple syllogism.
On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 05:53:56PM -0500, BillyGOTO wrote:
On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 04:46:51PM -0500, Michael Kalus wrote:
Nice, but the problem still remains: At this point it doesn't matter what he has done (or we say he has done). This is not a punishment. "Innocent until proofen guilty" anyone? This is the basis for the "enlightened" western society, no?
This isn't a ski mask burglary. We KNOW Saddam ruled Iraq. We KNOW what crimes were committed. Simple syllogism.
No we don't. We only know what the propaganda mills have told us. Twenty years ago it was a different story. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com
On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 12:12:55PM -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
This isn't a ski mask burglary. We KNOW Saddam ruled Iraq. We KNOW what crimes were committed. Simple syllogism.
No we don't. We only know what the propaganda mills have told us. Twenty years ago it was a different story.
Right. We don't know that he's a murdering son of a bitch, that's all propaganda, but we DO know that we've supported him in the past and IT'S ALL OUR FAULT. That is no propaganda, surely. There's never any need to qualify *those* kinds of assertons with the "propaganda mills" line. -- avva
On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 04:46:51PM -0500, Michael Kalus wrote:
Nice, but the problem still remains: At this point it doesn't matter what he has done (or we say he has done).
Of course it matters.
This is not a punishment. "Innocent until proofen guilty" anyone? This is the basis for the "enlightened" western society, no?
This is a principle of civilian life, not military conflicts. There's no "innocent until proven guilty" in military conflicts, surely you understand that. Oh, and BTW, do you know that in the enlightened western society (give up the sarcastic quotes shtick, it's died and its corpse stinks pretty badly) judges commonly allow or deny bail, or set its amount, based on hypothesised accusations against a detained person, when nothing at all has been proven, in the court of law or otherwise? Why don't you go and fight that grievious injustice? -- avva
participants (7)
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Anatoly Vorobey -
BillyGOTO -
Harmon Seaver -
James A. Donald -
Jim Dixon -
Michael Kalus -
Nomen Nescio