http://www.house.gov/conyers/nc082001.htm A Michigan congressman is looking into launching a federal investigation of the problem of toxic mold in the United States, Michigan Lawyers Weekly has learned. Meanwhile, a number of state legislators are about to introduce a bill in Lansing to address toxic mold in this state, a problem that was first reported in a recent issue of Michigan Lawyers Weekly. ("Toxic Mold Litigation Takes Hold In Michigan," July 30.) So-called "toxic molds" infest porous building materials like wood and drywall inside homes and other buildings. The molds release poisonous mycotoxins that can have grave health effects, especially on children, the elderly and those with compromised immune systems. Experts say that remediation is often difficult, hazardous and expensive. Health effects can be permanent. Read here for more.
On Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 06:53:32PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
http://www.house.gov/conyers/nc082001.htm
A Michigan congressman is looking into launching a federal investigation of the problem of toxic mold in the United States,
Hi Declan. What's the purpose of sending this to the cypherpunks list? Do you intend it as an example of Silly Congress Tricks? While I have a general unease about government getting involved in anything as they're too likely to muck it up, toxic mold does appear to potentially be a serious problem. A quick Google search uncovers a large number of references to toxic mold problems... scientific papers, news stories, and even frightening statements like: < "Mold is everywhere," according to San Francisco attorney Sara Thorpe. < "There are no specific government guidelines and not a whole lot of < medical information on it. It's ripe for lawyers to get into and expand it." (http://www.enn.com/news/wire-stories/2000/10/10062000/upi_mold_32232.asp) if the lawyers are into it, government won't be far behind. There appear to be _five_ different bills pending in California including one sponsored by a home builders association. Eric -- this posting contains less than 7mg/liter of Stachybotrys, Penicillum and Aspergillus spores and thus is in compliance with the Toxic Mold Protection Act of 2002.
Eric: I forward stuff to cypherpunks that I find relevant and interesting. If you don't like the items, feel free to delete them or whatnot. *shrug* If Congress were to do nothing about toxic mold, somehow, I suspect the republic would survive. There are many, many problems in this world. Somehow, humans usually manage without politicians' help. -Declan At 04:26 PM 9/28/01 -0700, Eric Murray wrote:
What's the purpose of sending this to the cypherpunks list?
Do you intend it as an example of Silly Congress Tricks?
While I have a general unease about government getting involved in anything as they're too likely to muck it up, toxic mold does appear to potentially be a serious problem. A quick Google search uncovers a large number of references to toxic mold problems... scientific papers, news stories, and even frightening statements like:
On Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 07:34:23PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
Eric: I forward stuff to cypherpunks that I find relevant and interesting.
Mold is relevant to the usual cpunks topics?
If you don't like the items, feel free to delete them or whatnot. *shrug*
If I just didn't like it, I would have. Your posts are usually informative and relevant to cpunks. I was genuinely interested in why you forwarded this one-- Stupid Government Tricks are much too common to be news, and once you do a little looking, this one doesn't appear to be any stupider than say milk price supports. Possibly less stupid if it allows people with mold problems caused by defective construction to sue their contractors. Either you didn't bother to do the research to discover that this is not the trivial problem it sounds like (never mind the argument that government should or shouldn't be involved-- there's lots of things that from a libertarian viewpoint they should not be involved in but are, and that's not newsworthy), or there's some relevancy to the usual cpunks topics that escapes me. The tone of your reply makes me suspect the former, but I hold out hope for the latter. Eric BTW, http://caoc.com/homesafe/groups.htm is a good list of links to toxic mold sites.
At 05:04 PM 9/28/01 -0700, Eric Murray wrote:
Your posts are usually informative and relevant to cpunks. I was genuinely interested in why you forwarded this one--
Eric, I appreciate your contributions to and support of the list, but, again, if you don't like a post, you know what to do... -Declan
-- On 28 Sep 2001, at 17:04, Eric Murray wrote:
Mold is relevant to the usual cpunks topics?
Governmental meddling with every aspect of human activity is highly relevant to cypherpunks. The mold is irrelevant -- to cypherpunks and to government. The fact that government involves itself in toxic mold is relevant to cypherpunks. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG ckh80GEVt6N7AiSsd/uX79CAWpyq5UcOVJctkKm+ 4uA070BaG4j5unRtRYH2lGqUQwKrkNN2Trenpzhvx
Declan writes:
Experts say that remediation is often difficult, hazardous and expensive.
Caulk all cracks and crevasses. Wash surfaces with 1 part bleach to 6 parts water. Generously apply premium stain-blocking sealer, and topcoat. Less expensive than your typical Congressional investigation. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
Caulk all cracks and crevasses. Wash surfaces with 1 part bleach to 6 parts water. Generously apply premium stain-blocking sealer, and topcoat.
Less expensive than your typical Congressional investigation.
Many molds (stachybotris, is what I have the most experience with, for one) would need much more bleach than that as the water will make the molds grow more. Besides many molds live _in_ the walls not on them, there will always be holes, i.e. the floor. So you know, my experience with this is 3 years of vollunteering at an elementary school I used to live near. Crescent Elementary in Suisun California. If you want more info, drop me a line this topics getting a lot of attention already, so it must be a cypherpunk topic. Billy
Max writes:
Many molds (stachybotris, is what I have the most experience with, for one) would need much more bleach than that as the water will make the molds grow more. Besides many molds live _in_ the walls not on them, there will always be holes, i.e. the floor.
I don't know. I've yet to meet a mold that didn't die when you poured hot bleach solution on it, particularly if you add a good wetting agent like TSP. Sealers and paints have potent fungicides and mildewcides in them, and for tough cases, you can use 3-part epoxy systems designed for biological laboratories that no microorganisms can live on. You can skim coat floors and walls before finishing, and screen them down, and all cracks around millwork can be sealed with flexible latex caulk, which also contains mildewcides and fungicides. Yes, you may not get mold in wall interiors and structural members, but I think that you can keep it out of the rooms people inhabit. Particularly if you treat the ventilation system at the same time. There was some government building that was in the news a few years back, because they had delayed finishing the daycare center, and there was some noxious black mold on the unpainted sheetrock. The contractor wanted to wipe the walls down with bleach and paint them, and various tree-huggers were demanding the whole thing be torn down, reframed, and redrywalled. In any case, I think claims of "Attack of the Killer Mold" are vastly overblown. Most people with mold-related health problems live in damp slums with clumps of it growing on their walls. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
-- On 28 Sep 2001, at 19:51, Eric Cordian wrote:
Most people with mold-related health problems live in damp slums with clumps of it growing on their walls.
You do not need to live in a slum. Indeed most slums are poorly sealed, and most poorly sealed buildings have no mold problem. If you live in a well sealed building, and are energy conscious, and always keep the doors and windows closed, and the weather outside is cold, there will be chronic condensation on windows and and some parts of the walls. Mold will then grow, very possibly harming or even killing the inhabitants. The recent attack of the killer mold in California is a result of the recent big energy conservation measures. The correct response is to wipe down the highly visible mold with dilute bleach solution, then leave a window cracked open whenever you see condensation. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG ykZywqFOugoYrQuL2UfnBkvxrsoCtpo9xqaWiQdT 4KouvDZkOpkJ9+WUtFIc3N7SFt/stGl6FBYJCElyI
At 08:17 AM 9/29/01 -0700, jamesd@echeque.com wrote:
The correct response is to wipe down the highly visible mold with dilute bleach solution, then leave a window cracked open whenever you see condensation.
Or live in a house made of real materials instead of wallboard. Or live in a cold climate. DCF
On 28 Sep 2001, at 19:51, Eric Cordian wrote:
In any case, I think claims of "Attack of the Killer Mold" are vastly overblown.
In the past, long ago, humans lived in caves and holes in the ground, at least in some places. Mole and bacteria were pretty common and humans survived. If you are born into an environment where "mold" and "spores" are common you build-up a resistance early in life. In recent years the American consumer has been assaulted with vendors selling anti-bacterial and anti-mold solutions which promise a healthy environment. I question the soundness of attempting to sanitize our environment to the point where there is limited exposure to bacteria and molds. I notice a lot more kids with allergies and environmental sensitivities than I remember as a youth and if I manage to visit the home of these kids I notice the home is usually very clean. The point here is providing an ultra clean environment for young children may not be the best way to prepare them for a life in a world with various life forms, read mold and bacteria, attempting to use you as a host.
Most people with mold-related health problems live in damp slums with clumps of it growing on their walls.
Not entirely true. I live on the west coast of Canada in what is basically a temperate rain forest 6 to 8 months of the year. Most modern paints have anti-fungal ingredients, or they are just poison to begin with, and generally resist mold for a number of years. When the paint gets old and there is humidity there will be mold. With new paint and lots of humidity there will be mold in no time. A few years ago the Canadian federal gov't tightened building regulations to require new construction to have a double envelope. Basically the walls are sealed on the outside and sealed on the inside. Great idea for most of Canada which is cold and dry but questionable in a temperate rain forest. Now add to this municipal gov'ts who in an attempt to maximize property taxes and development charges decide to tax on the square footage covered by the eves rather than the interior square footage and the problem grows. Developers build with no eves and the building walls, outside envelope, are subject to the full force of the weather, which is mainly liquid. The authorities responsible for building inspections fall down badly and only go through the motions. Since it is warm enough to work year round, even though it rains 6 to 8 months a year, the builders work year round. They frame the walls in the rain and even though they put a roof on the structure they will seal the wet wood framing on both sides. The end result are buildings with significant moisture leakage and mold. The problem is not so bad with single family dwellings as the eves tend to keep the weather off the walls, or so it is commonly thought. Multi-family dwellings are hit big time. They call it the Leaky Condo Crisis and virtually every multi-family building constructed in the last 5 to 8 years has the problem. It is very common to find the inside structure of walls black with mold. I can see the discoloured wood as I pass by. These are not low-end dwellings. Occupants of these Leaky Condos are complaining of mold related health issues. They are finding many condos in Seattle are suffering from similar problems. Older low-end construction doesn't tend to have a problem as there is no sealed envelope, never mind double sealed envelope, and the walls tend to breath and any moisture dries out in the summer. Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond@fbntech.com FBN - Offering PUP - Unbreakable Encryption Techology http://www.fbntech.com/pup.html
It's can be a lot more difficult than that -- people have had to totally abandon otherwise excellent (newer and expensive) buildings. Some people have also suffered apparantly permanent brain damage. Don't know exactly what the gov can do about it tho -- ban mold? New war on (some) molds? Maybe give it to the Homeland Securidat force. Maybe it's bio-terror? Hmm -- come to think of it, Yellow Rain was a fungus, a rather easily grown one at that, and --- gosh, gee -- oh shit, the Russians were dumping that on Afganistan. Maybe Osama is behind the toxic mold epidemic. Eric Cordian wrote:
Declan writes:
Experts say that remediation is often difficult, hazardous and expensive.
Caulk all cracks and crevasses. Wash surfaces with 1 part bleach to 6 parts water. Generously apply premium stain-blocking sealer, and topcoat.
Less expensive than your typical Congressional investigation.
-- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
-- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver@cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,165155,00.html -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver@cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
participants (8)
-
Declan McCullagh -
Duncan Frissell -
Eric Cordian -
Eric Murray -
Harmon Seaver -
jamesd＠echeque.com -
maxinux -
Raymond D. Mereniuk