Sampo Syreeni <decoy@iki.fi> writes:
On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, Anonymous Coredump wrote:
THE BLACK "BLOC" The whole idea of a Black Bloc is that people wear all black, and stay in a tight formation. If people don't stay in formation, and wander around with large gaps in-between, well, that's not a black bloc, that's a march of anarchists wearing black.
Now, let me get this straight...anarchists whose primary display of ideology is to stay in tight formation? I understand that anarchy does not imply lack of organization...but formations? Sheesh.
So are you being sarcastic or are you really failing to understand that Black Blocs are a short-term tactic for possibly illegal operations on the street in an environment full of police, and not some demonstrative symbol of anarchist philosophy representing their vision of society?
Frankly, I don't see how any kind of "short-term tactic for possibly illegal operations on the street in an environment full of police" could be good for anything more than the symbolic. What did these "illegal operations" really accomplish apart from getting out a statement? Serious question. I'm just not seeing it. Making a few gestures pantomiming paramilitary operations is just plain suicidal. The bottom line is that in a protest-type situation, you're relying on the power of negative PR to keep the police from mowing you down any old time they feel like it. It doesn't matter what color you wear or how tight you march, you're still as vulnerable as anyone else if you don't have some serious, serious gear and training. And is that really the direction you're prepared to go? Think about it. A few acts of vandalism isn't exactly anything I'd call significant. And it's kind of sad that you really think anyone with real power and influence actually gives a damn about anything that happens at these protests to begin with. Sure, it keeps their PR spokesmen spinning, but otherwise it's laughed off as a total joke and annoyance. You don't have to like it to realize that's the way it is. So why not spend your time writing some useful and relevant software or books instead, something that really makes an impact. Creativity, not destruction. At any rate, it sure beats facing the prospect of rotting in jail as a political prisoner on trumped-up destruction of property charges--sending your whole life straight down the toilet for absolutely nothing. But it's your lives, do whatever you want. I'm sure you will. ~Faustine.
"Faustine" <a3495@cotse.com> writes: To make it clear, I'm not a member of the Black Blocs, associated with them in any way, nor do I think the tactic is effective. I was asking Sampo if he was being sarcastic in his association of this tactic with an anarchist ideology of any value.
Frankly, I don't see how any kind of "short-term tactic for possibly illegal operations on the street in an environment full of police" could be good for anything more than the symbolic. What did these "illegal operations" really accomplish apart from getting out a statement? Serious question. I'm just not seeing it.
Symbolically, not much good except for recruiting young males with visions of being the storm-troopers of revolution or something. I had an off-list discussion with someone about wether these actions were purely symbolic or not, my position is that they are not. My argument is based on what these people are writing in their calls-to-arms or whatever you call them. They are actually trying to develop tactics for these situations, not present an image to others. I can respect the desire to develop tactics for operating in situations like that (breaking barricades, evacuating downed marchers etc...), if only because I imagine that such tactics will be neccesarry to provide sufficient symbolic victories. A WTO protest that has people in turtle suits running around outside the fenced off area is one thing, a WTO protest that results in the storming and/or burning down of the hotel the conference was being held is another. Oops, I just put myself on some Fed list. -- Craig Brozefsky <craig@red-bean.com> http://www.red-bean.com/~craig "Indifference is the dead weight of history." -- Antonio Gramsci
On Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 04:52:36PM -0400, Faustine wrote:
Making a few gestures pantomiming paramilitary operations is just plain suicidal. The bottom line is that in a protest-type situation, you're relying on the power of negative PR to keep the police from mowing you down any old time they feel like it. It doesn't matter what color you wear or how tight you march, you're still as vulnerable as anyone else if you don't have some serious, serious gear and training. And is that really the direction you're prepared to go? Think about it.
Perhaps some Black Block types and other Seattlish protesters do have such gear and training, but the ones I've run across (http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/2001-bush-inauguration-highlights.html) do not. Besides, the police will always have more resources and will probably be able to stop you from legally possessing the cooler gear you really need (http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/dem-protests-00.html). -Declan
Hi Can u tell me how I can unsubscribe from this mailing list ? Regards, Vinayan Menon System Analyst vinayan_m@visualsoft-tech.com Ph : 3412266 Ext: 2021 VisualSoft Technologies www.visualsoft-tech.com www.visualmart.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-cypherpunks@minder.net [mailto:owner-cypherpunks@minder.net]On Behalf Of Craig Brozefsky Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 12:37 PM To: Faustine Cc: cypherpunks@lne.com Subject: Re: Meatspace anonymity manual "Faustine" <a3495@cotse.com> writes: To make it clear, I'm not a member of the Black Blocs, associated with them in any way, nor do I think the tactic is effective. I was asking Sampo if he was being sarcastic in his association of this tactic with an anarchist ideology of any value.
Frankly, I don't see how any kind of "short-term tactic for possibly illegal operations on the street in an environment full of police" could be good for anything more than the symbolic. What did these "illegal operations" really accomplish apart from getting out a statement? Serious question. I'm just not seeing it.
Symbolically, not much good except for recruiting young males with visions of being the storm-troopers of revolution or something. I had an off-list discussion with someone about wether these actions were purely symbolic or not, my position is that they are not. My argument is based on what these people are writing in their calls-to-arms or whatever you call them. They are actually trying to develop tactics for these situations, not present an image to others. I can respect the desire to develop tactics for operating in situations like that (breaking barricades, evacuating downed marchers etc...), if only because I imagine that such tactics will be neccesarry to provide sufficient symbolic victories. A WTO protest that has people in turtle suits running around outside the fenced off area is one thing, a WTO protest that results in the storming and/or burning down of the hotel the conference was being held is another. Oops, I just put myself on some Fed list. -- Craig Brozefsky <craig@red-bean.com> http://www.red-bean.com/~craig "Indifference is the dead weight of history." -- Antonio Gramsci
On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, Faustine wrote:
Frankly, I don't see how any kind of "short-term tactic for possibly illegal operations on the street in an environment full of police" could be good for anything more than the symbolic. What did these
Frankly, I think you're missing the point.
"illegal operations" really accomplish apart from getting out a
The point of the bloc noir attire is to attempt establishing anonymity in meatspace. This is the issue we're discussing, and it's strictly orthogonal to protester's other agenda.
statement? Serious question. I'm just not seeing it.
-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204/">leitl</a> ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3
participants (5)
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Craig Brozefsky -
Declan McCullagh -
Eugene Leitl -
Faustine -
Vinay Menon