On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 08:54 AM, Adam Shostack wrote:

Well, if you can't win on the truth, win on the procedures.

At least Dr. Mercuri is in fine company there, ranging all the way back to Socrates and Galileo. Little consolation, I know, as our democracy gets replaced by a kleptocracy, but what can you do?

Maybe she should set up stealdemocracy.com, a new voting machine company. Sell machines that explicitly let you steal elections. Get some press.

It's a meme we might want to spread: "They stole the election." ("They") I was intensely opposed to the gibberish about how the Republicans "stole" the Florida vote, for multiple reasons. First, the Dems wanted to change the rules after the outcome went against them...they wanted "hanging chads" counted in their favor (ultimately, of course, this wouldn't have even swayed the outcome, as careful studies by newspapers showed). Second, they wanted the Elections Commission to somehow adjust the outcome based on exit interviews with little old Jewish ladies who claimed they wanted to vote for Algore but who actually voted for Pat Buchanan or Jeffery Dahmer or whomever it was that was opposite Chad Gore on the ballot (note that Democrats designed the ballot). Third, they wanted only precincts known to be leaning toward Chad Gore recounted from scratch. (I would have _opposed_ a statewide recount on general common sense and legal grounds, too, but for sure I was aghast at the proposal to only recount selected precincts: "We'll keep recounting until the outcome fluctuates in our favor!") But I now see that spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt about the outcome of elections serves to undermine confidence in government and make more people skeptical of the whole process. The meme that is commonly heard today is "Bush and the Supreme Court stole the election." This is good. Shenanigans like the above story, with respected experts like Mercuri and Chaum excluded from a conference after they duly registered, will be good fodder for conspiracy stories about the 2004 election. (Actually, the recall vote on the governor of California is coming up on October 7th. Election officials are already claiming the ballots can't be ready in time, the machines will have to be brought out of mothballs and somehow made to work, and so on. I see many opportunities for spreading FUD about whatever outcome happens. Having Mercuri and Chaum ejected is the best thing that could have happened. --Tim May

At 1:56 PM -0400 8/6/03, R. A. Hettinga wrote:

cannot prevent

-3 negative miscount "can prevent" of course. Maybe I should apply for a job as a school superintendent... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Here's another one. On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 12:20:30PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:

At 09:46 2003-08-06 -0700, Tim May wrote: I was intensely opposed to the gibberish about how the Republicans "stole" the Florida vote, for multiple reasons. First, the Dems wanted to change the rules after the outcome went against them...they wanted "hanging chads" counted in their favor (ultimately, of course, this wouldn't have even swayed the outcome, as careful studies by newspapers showed). Second, they wanted the Elections Commission to somehow adjust the outcome based on exit interviews with little old Jewish ladies who claimed they wanted to vote for Algore but who actually voted for Pat Buchanan or Jeffery Dahmer or whomever it was that was opposite Chad Gore on the ballot (note that Democrats designed the ballot). Third, they wanted only precincts known to be leaning toward Chad Gore recounted from scratch. (I would have _opposed_ a statewide recount on general common sense and legal grounds, too, but for sure I was aghast at the proposal to only recount selected precincts: "We'll keep recounting until the outcome fluctuates in our favor!")

This was certainly a farce, but the decision by the SC to intervene was worse. The matter should have been thrown into the House of Representative where the Constitution has provisions for its resolution (or lack thereof).

steve

"Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." John Adams

-- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com

On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 01:49:26PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote: | At 11:54 2003-08-06 -0400, Adam Shostack wrote: | >Well, if you can't win on the truth, win on the procedures. | > | >At least Dr. Mercuri is in fine company there, ranging all the way | >back to Socrates and Galileo. Little consolation, I know, as our | >democracy gets replaced by a kleptocracy, but what can you do? | > | >Maybe she should set up stealdemocracy.com, a new voting machine | >company. Sell machines that explicitly let you steal elections. Get | >some press. | | A better solution, already available to voters, is to request an absentee | voter form. If a substantial number of voters asked to vote this way it | would overwhelm the voting machinery and completely negate any cost savings | expected from the distrusted automated systems. Huh? Voters don't control the security of the voting system any more than we control the security of the credit rating/id theft system. And similarly, your choice to not play doesn't protect you. Tim's idea of using the voting system's security to accelerate the de-legitimization of the system is a fine one, although it has the risk that the statists will get awfully violent as we try to ignore them out of existance. I don't see how an absentee ballot is going to make anything any better. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume