[gnu@toad.com: May 24: National Day of Outrage at NSA/Telco surveillance]
----- Forwarded message from John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> -----
At 4:26 PM +0200 5/22/06, Eugen Leitl channeled John Gilmore:
I haven't seen cryptographers and cypherpunks with protest signs -- yet.
Sigh. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
On Mon, May 22, 2006 at 06:50:46PM -0400, R.A. Hettinga wrote:
At 4:26 PM +0200 5/22/06, Eugen Leitl channeled John Gilmore:
I haven't seen cryptographers and cypherpunks with protest signs -- yet.
Sigh.
I know it doesn't get into your head, but the political process is one of the system parameters to be tweaked. Deliberate agnosia is not constructive. You can protest and lobby *and* write code. -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]
At 10:20 AM +0200 5/23/06, Eugen Leitl wrote:
the political process is one of the system parameters to be tweaked.
Don't be a dumbass. Reality causes politics. Not the other way around. Physics causes finance, finance causes politics. Run it backward and Lysenko's your uncle. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
On Tue, May 23, 2006 at 08:06:18AM -0400, R.A. Hettinga wrote:
Reality causes politics. Not the other way around. Physics causes finance, finance causes politics. Run it backward and Lysenko's your uncle.
People cause politics. And people are perfectly capable of cheerfully disregarding that financial reality (more consensual hallucination, like). If it's different in your model, then your model is inaccurate, and needs adjusting. As to physical models for people, we're not nearly there with a statistical peopledynamics -- it's a nonlinear system to start with, so there will never be a good descriptor. Protests do work. So do lobbies. Motivating people and cultivating contacts is hard -- and of course money helps here, too. All true, all orthogonal to writing code. I'm really surprised I had to diagram that for you. -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]
Speaking of orthogonal, what happened to *PLONK* as a code outburst for chagrin a being tromped by somebody smarter-assed, well, more adept at haughty bon mot triumphalisme. *PLONK*s were once frequently used here to hawk loogies. The archives show over 30,000 sneezes from about 2 million snorts. 29,000 were by Mr. Tim May, 500 by Monsieur Perry Metzger, 499 by Detweiler, a universally beloved pseudonym, though less popular in the American (forever a) colony than Euro-septic Luther Bissett. You say you missed about 1.9999 million of the wheezes. Well, then you are a super*PLONK*er who unsubbed after bazooka-ing your bugger, mooning your crack as the outdoor whacked it. Or pretended to unsub and hunkered down to see if anybody cared (Old French: "gave a shit"), or resubbed under a pseudo snot-me. Truthsayers claim over 98% of cpunk subscribers are one humanoid keyhammering about having to code for the 2% fuck-offs topside spitting sub-juvenile filos0fikal cant to consumers agog at the wonders of laborsaving digitalizers commanding them to spend thousands on upgraded error spreaders. This outrage must stop. Mark Klein nasaled.
At 2:17 PM +0200 5/23/06, Eugen Leitl proves why European GDB is in the shitter this week:
People cause politics.
People earn money, which they spend on politics.
And people are perfectly capable of cheerfully disregarding that financial reality (more consensual hallucination, like).
Indeed. Like they seem to be doing in the EU these days. The irony of the above statement coming from someone who lives at the ass-end the Fulda Gap I leave for others to work out.
If it's different in your model, then your model is inaccurate, and needs adjusting.
That's right. There are no facts. Just models. Heaven forfend we actually look at the way the world works. Hint: prices are *discovered*, bunky. Not calculated with models. Does the name "von Mises" mean anything to you, or did they edit it out of the German government school system? As Olsen says, a prince is a bandit who doesn't move. If there's no money to steal, the bandit, er, prince, starves, too. Ask Mssrs Mugabe, Castro, and all the other pissant price-calculators out there.
As to physical models for people, we're not nearly there with a statistical peopledynamics -- it's a nonlinear system to start with, so there will never be a good descriptor.
Again, you mistake knowledge of the market with a belief in price-calculation. You think that price discovery is price-calculation. *You're* the one who betrays his desire for the state to "control" the economy, and, apparently physics as well. You keep thinking in those kinds of mechanistic terms, Lysenko is, indeed, your uncle. Or you're his bitch. Take your pick.
Protests do work. So do lobbies. Motivating people and cultivating contacts is hard -- and of course money helps here, too. All true, all orthogonal to writing code.
Protests are like elections, and elections, as H.L. Mencken said, are merely advance auctions of stolen goods. It's better to produce more goods than they can steal, or like people do on the internet, goods they haven't thought to steal yet, or, much better, produce goods which can protect you from those who steal, which, paradoxically, is precisely what cryptography is.
I'm really surprised I had to diagram that for you.
I'm surprised you think markets can be diagrammed. The point is, cryptography solves, economically, financially, and thus physically, the entirety of the problem that perrypunks, ip, politech, et al., seem to be impotently jacking themselves off about at the moment. Funnily enough, in the case of perrypunks, they're crypto people. Hell, *you* proport to be a crypto person. You proport to write code. You have a problem with the NSA, write code, problem solved. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
On Tue, May 23, 2006 at 08:53:26AM -0400, R.A. Hettinga demonstrated his comprehension difficulties:
People cause politics.
People earn money, which they spend on politics.
Dude, politics has been with us at least since social primates. Politics is not just played for money, power is another major currency.
And people are perfectly capable of cheerfully disregarding that financial reality (more consensual hallucination, like).
Indeed. Like they seem to be doing in the EU these days. The irony of the above statement coming from someone who lives at the ass-end the Fulda Gap I leave for others to work out.
And your point being... ?
If it's different in your model, then your model is inaccurate, and needs adjusting.
That's right. There are no facts. Just models. Heaven forfend we actually look at the way the world works. Hint: prices are *discovered*, bunky. Not
We can't. Unless you broke out of Plato's cave you have to stick with models. Economics is a model, too.
calculated with models. Does the name "von Mises" mean anything to you, or did they edit it out of the German government school system?
Dude, I'm not interested in arguing religion with you.
As Olsen says, a prince is a bandit who doesn't move. If there's no money to steal, the bandit, er, prince, starves, too. Ask Mssrs Mugabe, Castro, and all the other pissant price-calculators out there.
You don't have to preach to the choir, you know.
As to physical models for people, we're not nearly there with a statistical peopledynamics -- it's a nonlinear system to start with, so there will never be a good descriptor.
No. You're still model-tarded. Economy is a special case of ecology. People are not money-driven, they're prestige-driven.
Again, you mistake knowledge of the market with a belief in price-calculation. You think that price discovery is price-calculation.
Actually, I'm not the obsessive-compulsive one talking about markets, so I resent such projections.
*You're* the one who betrays his desire for the state to "control" the economy, and, apparently physics as well. You keep thinking in those kinds
Aroo? Too much window-pane acid in your morning coffee?
of mechanistic terms, Lysenko is, indeed, your uncle. Or you're his bitch. Take your pick.
Thanks for lightening up my working day with some free entertainment. Appreciated.
Protests do work. So do lobbies. Motivating people and cultivating contacts is hard -- and of course money helps here, too. All true, all orthogonal to writing code.
Protests are like elections, and elections, as H.L. Mencken said, are merely advance auctions of stolen goods. It's better to produce more goods
So if I protest for my privacy, who am I stealing it from?
than they can steal, or like people do on the internet, goods they haven't thought to steal yet, or, much better, produce goods which can protect you from those who steal, which, paradoxically, is precisely what cryptography is.
So if they send you to Guantanamo because you won't cough up your keys how is cryptography going to protect you from being sodomized by a broomhandle by sadistic guards?
I'm really surprised I had to diagram that for you.
I'm surprised you think markets can be diagrammed.
The point is, cryptography solves, economically, financially, and thus physically, the entirety of the problem that perrypunks, ip, politech, et
Cryptography solves jack if it's not being used. I'm not surprised that I have to explain that to you.
al., seem to be impotently jacking themselves off about at the moment. Funnily enough, in the case of perrypunks, they're crypto people.
I see them organizing public protests. I also see them writing code. I see you trying to shut up people by your "cpunks write code" mantra.
Hell, *you* proport to be a crypto person. You proport to write code. You
Nope, I'm not a cypherpunk. Never claimed to be one. I'm just tracking political and technology news and running servers with code that cypherpunks wrote.
have a problem with the NSA, write code, problem solved.
I write code nobody uses (too afraid, too ignorant), problem not solved. -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]
At 3:31 PM +0200 5/23/06, Eugen Leitl wrote:
We can't. Unless you broke out of Plato's cave you have to stick with models. Economics is a model, too.
Ah. That's it, then. We all live in a model. And money, economics (finance for states, for anarchy-enabled out there...), don't exist. Say no more. Write when you get a clue. In the meantime, keep waving your sign and bleating about your rights. Somewhere, Antisthenes is laughing. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "Then we're stupid and we'll die." -- Pris (Darryl Hannah); Ridley Scott, 'Blade Runner'
Nice to see someone else out there believes in general semantics nC)e Plato's Cave. On the other hand, for someone who seems stuck on the belief that money creates an objective reality, RAH certainly did a good job getting you riled up. On 2006-05-23T15:31:33+0200, Eugen Leitl wrote:
On Tue, May 23, 2006 at 08:53:26AM -0400, R.A. Hettinga demonstrated his comprehension difficulties:
If it's different in your model, then your model is inaccurate, and needs adjusting.
That's right. There are no facts. Just models. Heaven forfend we actually look at the way the world works. Hint: prices are *discovered*, bunky. Not
We can't. Unless you broke out of Plato's cave you have to stick with models. Economics is a model, too.
I prefer to think of it as an exodus from an undesirable place. It was too cold, and the shadows were causing eyestrain. I'm perfectly capable of imagining such an exodus, at least. In my place of exile, there are no models. Well...
As Olsen says, a prince is a bandit who doesn't move. If there's no money to steal, the bandit, er, prince, starves, too. Ask Mssrs Mugabe, Castro, and all the other pissant price-calculators out there.
You don't have to preach to the choir, you know.
A prince is also a magician. Ask Fowles.
*You're* the one who betrays his desire for the state to "control" the economy, and, apparently physics as well. You keep thinking in those kinds
Aroo? Too much window-pane acid in your morning coffee?
Too little coffee and milk in his morning window-pane acid.
The point is, cryptography solves, economically, financially, and thus physically, the entirety of the problem that perrypunks, ip, politech, et
Cryptography solves jack if it's not being used. I'm not surprised that I have to explain that to you.
Or if every 3rd person is on the government's payroll and gets government toys with which to spy on their neighbors, or if they or TLA agents can invade my house at will, or if I'm prohibited from owning guns or knives or anything that might ouch in the slightest, like the FINE FOLK of Britannia and its former penile colony. *I* can't deal with those kinds of threat models, at least. It's not worth my effort. I might just join the government corps and use that as an excuse to spy on my neighbor's hot 13-year-old daughter.* * No, you fascist pigfucker government e-tards, not really. If you check, you'll find that neither of my neighbors has an underage daughter, so go fuck yourself.
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(RSW, what was the net result of the comments a week or two back about this? Thou shalt not suffer a MIME pgpsig to live?) -- The six phases of a project: I. Enthusiasm. IV. Search for the Guilty. II. Disillusionment. V. Punishment of the Innocent. III. Panic. VI. Praise & Honor for the Nonparticipants.
It's real simple here, folks. If you want to fuck the NSA, state, whatever, write code. If you want to get fucked in the ass some more, wave a sign around some more. 'nuff said. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Bob, You fucking heathenism hetero in denial, some advanced folks relish both of those delights, and you might like the combo too ... and your goat is fed up with its balls being licked. That's a Colbert Report. At 05:08 PM 5/23/2006 -0400, you wrote:
It's real simple here, folks.
If you want to fuck the NSA, state, whatever, write code.
If you want to get fucked in the ass some more, wave a sign around some more.
'nuff said.
Cheers, RAH
On 5/23/06, a long string of amusing commentary on political theory and the relative merits of working within a broken system to mitigate abuses versus subverting that system entirely columinated in hilarious epithets and criticism including:
Bob,
You fucking heathenism hetero in denial, some advanced folks relish both of those delights, and you might like the combo too ... and your goat is fed up with its balls being licked.
That's a Colbert Report.
you guys crack me the fuck up. :P
At 6:06 PM -0700 5/23/06, John Young drunkenly emetted, just missing my shoes:
You fucking heathenism hetero in denial, some advanced folks relish both of those delights, and you might like the combo too ... and your goat is fed up with its balls being licked.
That's a Colbert Report.
Ah. The voice of reason, once removed. Thank you for your enlightened opinion. Having done so, feel free to go back to waving signs to make shadow-puppets on the cave wall... ;-) Cheers, RAH Somewhere, there's a gamelon playing "Nearer My God to Thee" -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Well, when you put it that way, there is a sort of baseline logic... -TD
From: "R.A. Hettinga" <rah@shipwright.com> To: Justin <justin-cypherpunks@soze.net>, cypherpunks@jfet.org Subject: Re: [gnu@toad.com: May 24: National Day of Outrage at NSA/Telco surveillance] Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 17:08:53 -0400
It's real simple here, folks.
If you want to fuck the NSA, state, whatever, write code.
If you want to get fucked in the ass some more, wave a sign around some more.
'nuff said.
Cheers, RAH
-- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Justin <justin-cypherpunks@soze.net> wrote:
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(RSW, what was the net result of the comments a week or two back about this? Thou shalt not suffer a MIME pgpsig to live?)
I'm just some combination of lazy and busy. At some point in the (hopefully) not-too-distant future I'll fix it to pass through application/pgp-signature attachments. Oh yeah, and write that cpunks howto, too. Real life is so inconsiderate of my virtual obligations. -- Riad S. Wahby rsw@jfet.org
RAHweh wrote...
Hint: prices are *discovered*, bunky. Not calculated with models.
Well, kinda. Let's just say there's a sort of Platonic price floating around out there, and the activities of local politicalities can cause temporary displacements from that price. But, this displacement will of necessity cause short-term tensions and stresses until the displacement is resolved. Arguably, any political attempt to fix the price--even the "correct" price, is like trying to stop a pendulum by tying it to another pendulum. On the other hand, there are rare cases were political action (or the absence of it) impacts the short-term course of events. For instance, does it matter that Kodos brought us into Iraq but that Kang would not have? In the long run probably not but in the short run definitely. (Or at least if you were suckered into sending your kids to fight.) -TD
Events are already scheduled in Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, and NYC. You can register your own local event by sending mail to protest@saveaccess.org.
If anybody's planning to go to the San Francisco protest at "AT&T's main San Francisco headquarters at 666 Folsom St.", they'll be disappointed or confused. That building's been closed long enough that they've taken the Credit Union ATM machine away from the front entrance :-) (This is frustrating, because it means that the nearest one is now about 8 blocks away from my SF office instead of 1 block.) There are three or four other AT&T / SBC buildings near there, one of which has a nice big plaza and few windows, and another of which had a Cypherpunks meeting there once in the 90s. I'm unlikely to attend - I've got things to do down in the south bay. And unfortunately, IMHO their accuracy on other issues is about on par with their directions. They've got the Ballpark right, but it's big enough that it's hard to miss, and our corporate leaders do need yelling at for being boneheads, but they don't appear to understand the technical issues with network neutrality.
participants (8)
-
Bill Stewart -
coderman -
Eugen Leitl -
John Young -
Justin -
R.A. Hettinga -
Riad S. Wahby -
Tyler Durden