Re: Real capitalism falling down drunk
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/1d12980c97345cfb655b6db241ee1587.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Dave Honig wrote...Joe the nailmaker invests in a machine to make nails faster than he can by hand. Who has he coerced? Who cares? its low level market and
trade
The implicit coercion is the protection racket of the state lurking in the background and attempting to monopolies money. Best fought with anarchism.Now jamesd; "Coercion is implicit in all capitalism above low level
market and trade. Nonsense. If you do not like one guy's prices or wages, you can go to another, or start your own business"
Again:Who cares? its low level market and
trade
"Without property rights, the specialization of labor has to take place by something very like a state telling people what they must do, and what they may consume. Thus to suppress capitalism requires centralized terror, and lots of it. Nothing less will suffice. Been tried." Without property rights enforced by coercion by even the most minimal state using stone axes and spears. Again best fought by anarchism. Property rights may ebb and flow in a free society not a capitalist force propped society.How else are we to digitize the ' mass hallucination of money without anarchism? Something never really been given a fair go.Centrally directed terror is an obvious feature of modern capitalism.Do you suggest its about to wither away? "And indeed that terror is a large part of the attraction of socialism. Observe the popularity among socialists of books by those who have murdered helpless captives. Many socialists even name their ideology after mass murderers, for example Trotskyists. One can hardly imagine some faction of neo-nazis naming themselves after one of Hitler's more prominent goons." No one enjoys bashing authoritarian 'socialists' more than I,james,but its getting off topic.Crypto anarchy. Not cryptocapitalism.Remember? Famous anarchist Bakunin predicted the murderous folly that bourgeois marxism would lead to. Marx was an capitalist along with engels all his life.Show me some anarchist mass murderers.There must be one,somewhere on your site.Its pure straw man to try and mix anarchy with marxist-leninism. "Similarly, when socialists celebrate great moments in socialist history, it is not the heroic battles they recall, but the murder of the helpless and powerless -- for example they recall not the last days of the Paris commune, but the first. " James is flirting with hate speech here,I dont know what socialist soirees james attends,possibly national socialist. Libertarian socialists celebrate much about the commune and mourn much.Way off topic now,like its a manichean thing with you james? You are either for capitalism or your a cold war era commie?Thats your consistent response.Its old. "Similarly observe how the Soviet Union, Mao's china, and the rest ceased to be loved when the terror ceased. When the terror in the Soviet Union was in full flow, it was described a glorious paradise where the concept of a policeman was strange and unknown. When the terror eased, then they started to describe it as regrettably wicked, but nonetheless a much lesser evil than the USA. " You've really lost me now james,Is that the secret? Baffle them with bushit? Is it fun in your bubble boy world?
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/f6120644194aac8b23ab906586ba83d9.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
At 05:35 AM 12/7/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
Dave Honig wrote...Joe the nailmaker invests in a machine to make nails faster than he can by hand. Who has he coerced?
Who cares? its low level market and
trade
Well, I care about coercion; and you state that 'capitalism is coercion'.
The implicit coercion is the protection racket of the state lurking in the background and attempting to monopolies money.
Joe bought his machine in a mutually consenting transaction, no State involvement.
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/eb0d76fb89c3edf8e2a98429eebee3fb.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
-- On 7 Dec 2001, at 5:35, mattd wrote:
The implicit coercion is the protection racket of the state lurking in the background and attempting to monopolies money.
Money in the US was largely privately issued until 1915. Capitalism long predates government monopolies of money. The word dollar comes from thaler, which a government stamped ounce of silver -- but stamped by a minor government very far away, one of many such stamping authorities. James A. Donald:
Without property rights, the specialization of labor has to take place by something very like a state telling people what > they must do, and what they may consume. Thus to suppress capitalism requires centralized terror, and lots of it. Nothing less will suffice. Been tried."
mattd:
Without property rights enforced by coercion by even the most minimal state
The state is the enemy of property, not the source. Property rights in the means of production not only continued to exist without state support, where the state was absent, they invariably continued to exist in the face of massive bloody state violence aimed at crushing those rights. Always, those seeking to crush those rights had to escalate far beyond what they expected, then escalate the violence even further. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG MRwFqhIB+qkA4W1vMk/7uvu4yQqZo01QBY934d0T 4fiMl7/h0c4yVNTogn2WQL0VXfpYDXkzLG40B4rb4
participants (3)
-
David Honig
-
jamesd@echeque.com
-
mattd