--- Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> wrote:
defending according to your prior post. I thought they didn't really believe in property?
You are a ... "journalist" ??? Where, pray tell, did you divine that G8 protesters "don't believe in property" ? Or did you feel in your little brain that it's just the right thing to say ?
In any case, culture is something that exists in the minds of people and in the choices those people make every day. One can only claim to "own" a
This is nonsense. *All concepts* exist in minds of people, you don't mine for ethics or culture or modular algebra.
As for the planet, a bit big to be owned at this point though people will be able to own them later when we're richer and have access to more of them. Though why one would want to own a gravity well is beyond me.
This is sooooo deep. Did you ever had anything but wrong generalisations to say ? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 12:14:52AM -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote:
You are a ... "journalist" ???
Everyone's a journalist nowadays.
Where, pray tell, did you divine that G8 protesters "don't believe in property" ?
Their anti-property rights slogans, their disdain for private property, their embrace of socialist and Marxist ideology? See a nice writeup on this point that Cato's Aaron Lucas sent to my Politech list: http://www.politechbot.com/p-02281.html -Declan
Their anti-property rights slogans, their disdain for private property, their embrace of socialist and Marxist ideology? See a nice writeup on this point that Cato's Aaron Lucas sent to my Politech list:
Cato is the first place that I visit when curious about the current agenda of the unique mix of libertarian/new world order propaganda. Translating protesters' agenda to "anti-property" *is* pure propaganda designed to scare god-fearing middle class cypherpunks that somehow they will lose some of their property should G8 protesters seize the world government (BTW, it would be interesting to see what is the net worth of cpunkers and how that influences their positions :-) As the word "communist" loses its strength new words are needed to instill fear, and "anti-property" is a nice catchall. It's all in the language. You also enumerate ideologies with implicit assumption that they are "bad". So whatever can be labeled "marxist" or "socialist" is somehow horrible. You don't say WHAT is bad about it, you *assume* that everyone will jump to the bandwagon and agree that it's something bad. Kill the commies. This is a classic propaganda technique. I will not bother citing sources that have exactly the opposite PoV from Cato's - you can look them up yourself. The point of a discussion is not spamming each other with pre-digested, ready-to-wear, downloaded simplifications but to inject some of own experience and induction. Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 10:37:48AM -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote:
Cato is the first place that I visit when curious about the current agenda of the unique mix of libertarian/new world order propaganda.
So instead of responding to the text of the article, you rant about the author. That's intellectual integrity about on the level of many of those anti-property rights protests.
Translating protesters' agenda to "anti-property" *is* pure propaganda designed to scare god-fearing middle class cypherpunks that somehow they will lose some of their property should G8 protesters seize the world government (BTW, it
The problem is that the protesters have no coherent message. Take this bit of silliness: http://www.mccullagh.org/image/10/breastfeeding-is-your-right.html Does anyone really think that breastfeeding is a right anytime, anywhere? Don't I have a right to tell someone to leave my home if they're doing it at a gathering I'm hosting on my property? (I wouldn't, but that's not the point.)
As the word "communist" loses its strength new words are needed to instill fear, and "anti-property" is a nice catchall. It's all in the language.
Yep. And it's also pretty accurate. The protesters have no coherent message, but a disdain for property rights is about as close as they come to one. -Declan
So instead of responding to the text of the article, you rant about the
I am not going to analyze adverts from your site - if you have to say something say it here - as I tried to explain in simple terms, spamming with canned stuff is not the point of a discussion. Or is it too expensive for you in cognitive terms to come up with arguments yourself ?
author. That's intellectual integrity about on the level of many of those anti-property rights protests.
Your perception is impaired. I never mentioned the author. *You* qualified author as "Cato's". Another granfallooning. I simply pointed that out and re-qualified what you implied about Cato, in your manner of using implied values to build a point out of nothing.
The problem is that the protesters have no coherent message. Take this bit of silliness:
This is not bad in itself. Single-mindedness is not really a quality I am looking for. Are they all supposed to be warriors for the same idea ? Where did you get that ?
Does anyone really think that breastfeeding is a right anytime, anywhere? Don't I have a right to tell someone to leave my home if they're doing it at a gathering I'm hosting on my property? (I wouldn't, but that's not the point.)
These are rhetorical questions. The answers are supposed to be, let me see ... "no" and "yes" ? The analogy is false, of course. Take a look at US propaganda shorts from 50-ties and learn what to avoid.
Yep. And it's also pretty accurate. The protesters have no coherent message,
There it goes again. Is it too hard to understand that these people are not corporate employees adhering to company's policies ? Declan, you proved beyond any doubt that you have nothing to say. You just talk an re-shuffle buzzwords you deem popular. You are also incompetent propagandist - I do enjoy discussing with the skilled ones, though. Therefore I see no point in furthering this exchange. Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 10:37:48AM -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote:
Cato is the first place that I visit when curious about the current agenda of the unique mix of libertarian/new world order propaganda.
So instead of responding to the text of the article, you rant about the author. That's intellectual integrity about on the level of many of those anti-property rights protests.
You fucking hypocrite. At least half the crap you spew is nothing more than ad hominims. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 10:00:54AM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
You fucking hypocrite. At least half the crap you spew is nothing more than ad hominims.
In many a distant land, one can hear the laugher as it rolls over hills and into valleys; just as those gripped by hilarity at its source roll over papers and into furniture. -- ___ ___ . . ___ \ / |\ |\ \ _\_ /__ |-\ |-\ \__
At 2:10 PM -0400 7/21/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
The problem is that the protesters have no coherent message. Take this bit of silliness: http://www.mccullagh.org/image/10/breastfeeding-is-your-right.html
Does anyone really think that breastfeeding is a right anytime, anywhere? Don't I have a right to tell someone to leave my home if they're doing it at a gathering I'm hosting on my property? (I wouldn't, but that's not the point.)
??? Is it even something the government regulates?
At 10:37 AM -0700 7/21/01, Morlock Elloi wrote:
Their anti-property rights slogans, their disdain for private property, their embrace of socialist and Marxist ideology? See a nice writeup on this point that Cato's Aaron Lucas sent to my Politech list:
Cato is the first place that I visit when curious about the current agenda of the unique mix of libertarian/new world order propaganda.
Translating protesters' agenda to "anti-property" *is* pure propaganda designed to scare god-fearing middle class cypherpunks that somehow they will lose some of their property should G8 protesters seize the world government (BTW, it would be interesting to see what is the net worth of cpunkers and how that influences their positions :-)
As the word "communist" loses its strength new words are needed to instill fear, and "anti-property" is a nice catchall. It's all in the language.
You also enumerate ideologies with implicit assumption that they are "bad". So whatever can be labeled "marxist" or "socialist" is somehow horrible. You don't say WHAT is bad about it, you *assume* that everyone will jump to the bandwagon and agree that it's something bad. Kill the commies. This is a classic propaganda technique.
Wanna bet? Marxist, socialist and communist ideologies are bad because at some level they assume that society has a *right* to the output of my labour above and beyond the level that I consume from society. That is slavery. (To put this another way, it is legitimate for society to force me to pay for what I consume, it has a "right" (tho' this word is meaningless when it comes to an abstraction like "society") to my productive labour *ONLY* to the point where it pays for what I use. Marxist, Socialists, communists, Nazis and Fascists have the further problem of believing (for the most part) in massively centralized planning structures. In societies of about 100k people, these fail miserably, and don't work all that well in smaller groups.
I will not bother citing sources that have exactly the opposite PoV from Cato's - you can look them up yourself. The point of a discussion is not spamming each other with pre-digested, ready-to-wear, downloaded simplifications but to inject some of own experience and induction. Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 12:14:52AM -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote:
You are a ... "journalist" ???
Everyone's a journalist nowadays.
They always were. The 'commercial' distinction about 'press' is a false and unconstitutional distinction. The Constitution speaks of 'the press', not as a bunch of fame and profit seeking opportunists, but as a free and available mechanism for individuals to discuss their views and desires (this mailing list is a perfect example as is a private mailbox. What todays modern press does is a bastardization of intent and a whoring for fame and profit; as opposed to fostering real discussion and change in our society. Some Jefferson quotes to demonstrate the distinction: No government ought to be without censors; and when the press is free, no one ever will. Nature has given to man no other means of sifting out the truth either in religion, law or politics. I think it as honorable to the government neither to know or notice its sycophants or censors as it would be undignified and criminal to pamper the former and persecute the latter. At a very early period in my life I determined never to put a sentence into any newspaper. I have religiously adhered to the resolution through my life and have great reason to be contented with it. Were I to undertake to answer the calumnies of the newspapers it would be more than all my time and twenty aids could effect. For, while I should be answering one, twenty new ones would be invented. I have thought it better to trust to the justice of my countrymen that they would judge me by what they see of my conduct on the stage they have placed me.
Their anti-property rights slogans, their disdain for private property, their embrace of socialist and Marxist ideology? See a nice writeup on this point that Cato's Aaron Lucas sent to my Politech list: http://www.politechbot.com/p-02281.html
You lump the majority into a fraction. A prime example of the self-serving dellusion of cash and fame on the truth. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
participants (6)
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Declan McCullagh -
Izaac -
Jim Choate -
Jim Choate -
Morlock Elloi -
Petro