Drivers License as ID Card
Americans and their Drivers Licenses. There's something funny about them. ************** http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A32717-2001Nov2?language=printer "States Devising Plan for High-Tech National Identification Cards By Robert O'Harrow Jr. Washington Post Staff Writer Saturday, November 3, 2001; Page A10 State motor vehicle authorities are working on a plan to create a national identification system for individuals that would link all driver databases and employ high-tech cards with a fingerprint, computer chip or other unique identifier." http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A53795-2001Oct25?language=printer "4th Arrest in Probe of Hijacker ID Fraud Man Accused of Helping Suspects in Sept. 11 Terror Attacks Exploit Va. Loophole By Patricia Davis and Brooke A. Masters Washington Post Staff Writers Friday, October 26, 2001; Page B09 A fourth person was arrested and charged yesterday with helping the Sept. 11 hijackers illegally obtain Virginia identification cards less than five weeks before the terrorist attacks. ************** Both civilians and officials seem to think that there is some magic about a drivers license that would make it a good national ID and requires that it be protected from misuse by unauthorized persons. Apparently unknown to these worthies is the fact that terrorists, criminals, or just plain folks can do anything they want to do without a drivers license issued by a US state. As surprising as it may seem, one can drive, rent cars, fly domestically or internationally, get a job, start a business, rent accomodations, open bank accounts, and do anything you like without a US drivers license. Holders of foreign drivers licenses can drive in the US. Among the four million US expats are many native born US citizens who have an absolute right to enter, live, and work in the US but who do not *currently* even have a right to obtain a US drivers license since they are not *resident* in the US. Any US citizens who care to can characterize themselves as being in this group. A drivers license issued by a US state is no more than evidence of identity. It is not evidence of right to reside in the US, right to work in the US, etc. One must use other documents to establish right to reside and right to work (if those documents are required). One can use other documents to establish identity. Including most significantly a passport (whether foreign or domestic). With 300 million US border crossings by aliens annually, it is clear that plenty of aliens are travelling around the country almost none of whom have drivers liccenses issued by a US state. I hope that a "new, improved, drivers license" takes some of the heat off the National ID concept. DCF
On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:
Americans and their Drivers Licenses. There's something funny about them.
************** http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A32717-2001Nov2?language=printer
"States Devising Plan for High-Tech National Identification Cards
By Robert O'Harrow Jr. Washington Post Staff Writer Saturday, November 3, 2001; Page A10
State motor vehicle authorities are working on a plan to create a national identification system for individuals that would link all driver databases and employ high-tech cards with a fingerprint, computer chip or other unique identifier."
Fortunately it will be found unconstitutional, states can't make treaties and such between themselves. Section. 10. No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility. No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress. No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Inchoate pontificated:
Fortunately it [state motor vehicle authorities creating a national identification system] will be found unconstitutional, states can't make treaties and such between themselves.
Gee, that'll be news to the Port Authority of New York & New Jersey, the Mid-America Regional Council and a plethora of other interstate compacts, authorities and organizations. (Where does he get this stuff?) S a n d y _____________________________________________________________ If the law of gravity is fundamental, why can't it be changed by Constitutional amendment since it's the primary authority? --Inchoate W W \*\ /*/ The Road Kill Group |*| |*| /*////|\\\\*\ |\- (|||||||||||||\((x)\ -======-------------||---:> (|||||||||||||/((x)/ \*\\\\|////*/ |/- |*| |*| /*/ \*\ M M
On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
Inchoate pontificated:
Fortunately it [state motor vehicle authorities creating a national identification system] will be found unconstitutional, states can't make treaties and such between themselves.
Gee, that'll be news to the Port Authority of New York & New Jersey, the Mid-America Regional Council and a plethora of other interstate compacts, authorities and organizations.
It certainly will at some point if they didn't get Congressional permission. I get it from actually reading the Constitution. You might try it sometime. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Further follow-up: http://www.panynj.gov/hisframe.HTM "On April 30, 1921, The Port of New York Authority was established as the first of its kind in the Western Hemisphere and the first interstate agency created under a clause of the Constitution permitting compacts between states. One area of jurisdiction was called the "Port District," a bistate region of about 1,500 square miles centered on the Statue of Liberty. The name was changed to The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey in 1972 to identify more accurately our status as a bistate agency." Looks as though Jimbo now needs a remedial Constitution-reading course... S a n d y
-----Original Message----- From: owner-cypherpunks@lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks@lne.com]On Behalf Of Sandy Sandfort Sent: 27 November, 2001 14:26 To: Jim Choate; cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com Subject: RE: Drivers License as ID Card
Inchoate pontificated:
Fortunately it [state motor vehicle authorities creating a national identification system] will be found unconstitutional, states can't make treaties and such between themselves.
Gee, that'll be news to the Port Authority of New York & New Jersey, the Mid-America Regional Council and a plethora of other interstate compacts, authorities and organizations.
(Where does he get this stuff?)
S a n d y _____________________________________________________________
If the law of gravity is fundamental, why can't it be changed by Constitutional amendment since it's the primary authority?
--Inchoate
W W \*\ /*/ The Road Kill Group |*| |*| /*////|\\\\*\ |\- (|||||||||||||\((x)\ -======-------------||---:> (|||||||||||||/((x)/ \*\\\\|////*/ |/- |*| |*| /*/ \*\ M M
On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
Further follow-up:
http://www.panynj.gov/hisframe.HTM
"On April 30, 1921, The Port of New York Authority was established as the first of its kind in the Western Hemisphere and the first interstate agency created under a clause of the Constitution permitting compacts between states. One area of jurisdiction was called the "Port District," a bistate region of about 1,500 square miles centered on the Statue of Liberty. The name was changed to The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey in 1972 to identify more accurately our status as a bistate agency."
Looks as though Jimbo now needs a remedial Constitution-reading course...
Keep reading until you get to the part of about it forming under a compact allowed by the Constitution...it's a couple of more para's down. It's interesting that you didn't include that little snippet... I think somebody owes me an apology. Though I won't hold my breath, I hate purple. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 04:13:23PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:
Americans and their Drivers Licenses. There's something funny about them.
************** http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A32717-2001Nov2?language=printer
"States Devising Plan for High-Tech National Identification Cards
By Robert O'Harrow Jr. Washington Post Staff Writer Saturday, November 3, 2001; Page A10
State motor vehicle authorities are working on a plan to create a national identification system for individuals that would link all driver databases and employ high-tech cards with a fingerprint, computer chip or other unique identifier."
Fortunately it will be found unconstitutional, states can't make treaties and such between themselves.
Section. 10.
[...]
No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.
I guess it wouldn't be unconstitutional if Congress approves it... Or does this not count as an "Agreement or Compact with another State"? Somehow it reads that way to me. -- Michael A. Gurski (opt. [firstname].)[lastname]@pobox.com Hail Eris! -><- All Hail Discordia! O- http://www.pobox.com/~[lastname] 1024/39B5BADD PGP:3493 A994 B159 48B7 1757 1E4E 6256 4570 1024D/1166213E GPG: 628F 37A4 62AF 1475 45DB AD81 ADC9 E606 1166 213E My opinions are mine alone, even if you should be sharing them.
On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Michael Gurski wrote:
I guess it wouldn't be unconstitutional if Congress approves it... Or does this not count as an "Agreement or Compact with another State"? Somehow it reads that way to me.
The problem, there is no real support. If Congress was so motivated they could do it themselves and they haven't, not like they haven't been trying. I don't consider 'National ID Cards' a major problem, more like flash/bangs to distract your attention. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
At 06:01 PM 11/27/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Michael Gurski wrote:
I guess it wouldn't be unconstitutional if Congress approves it... Or does this not count as an "Agreement or Compact with another State"? Somehow it reads that way to me.
The problem, there is no real support. If Congress was so motivated they could do it themselves and they haven't, not like they haven't been trying. I don't consider 'National ID Cards' a major problem, more like flash/bangs to distract your attention.
Congressional approval for this sort of thing is about like the proverbial ham sandwich that prosecutors can get grand juries to indict. It wouldn't be a problem in itself, but Congress can delegate much of it to the bureaucratic\\\\\\\\\\\executive branch. Furthermore, while states probably couldn't make the kind of agreement that would give one state Constititional standing to sue the other for non-performance of the agreement without a bit of help from Congress, they can certainly have their bureaucrats go discuss common standards without getting busted for anti-trust violations.
On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:
Congressional approval for this sort of thing is about like the proverbial ham sandwich that prosecutors can get grand juries to indict.
Actually it wouldn't be. Compare and contrast national ID cards developed and authorized by Congress and the President, and then consider ID cards managed by the states but authorized by Congress and the President. To take your position seriously you need to provide a reasonable answer to the following question. Why would Congress/President not invoke a National ID card themselves while allowing the states to do it with their permission? Why would Congress/President hand power over to the states they didn't want to exercise themselves? Answer: They won't. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Inchoate backpedaled:
Why would Congress/President not invoke a National ID card themselves while allowing the states to do it with their permission? Why would Congress/President hand power over to the states they didn't want to exercise themselves?
Answer: They won't.
Correct answer: They would. Given that the House and Executive branch are in Republican hands. And given that Republicans tend to support "states rights," using the states as a cat's paw to introduce a national ID via the back door makes perfect sense. (Unless you only have inchoate sense.) S a n d y http://www.dictionary.com/wordoftheday/archive/1999/10/26.html Word of the Day for Tuesday October 26, 1999: inchoate \in-KOH-it\, adjective: 1. Recently, or just, begun; beginning. 2. Partially but not fully in existence or operation; existing in its elements; incomplete; imperfectly formed; as, "a vague inchoate idea". Writers basically work by instinct - I think you have only an inchoate sense of what you're doing. --John Gregory Dunne, quoted in "How John Gregory Dunne Puts Himself Into Books," New York Times, May 3, 1982 You take on a project because of the feeling, perhaps inchoate, that it may in some way contribute to your deeper understanding of the larger-scale research program you have chosen as your life's work. --Christopher Scholz, Fieldwork: A Geologist's Memoir of the Kalahari Still, if I'm honest, the most thrilling moments all came early, in the Fifties and Sixties, when the music was a primary focus of my energy, shaping my desires, coloring my memory, and producing the wild fantasy, widely shared, that my generation was, in some inchoate way, through the simple pleasure we all took in rock and roll, part of a new world dawning. --James Miller, Flowers in the Dustbin: The Rise of Rock and Roll, 1947-1977 Inchoate is from Latin inchoatus ("only begun, not finished, incomplete"), past participle of inchoo, inchoare, which is an alteration of incoho, incohare, to begin.
participants (5)
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Bill Stewart -
Duncan Frissell -
Jim Choate -
Michael Gurski -
Sandy Sandfort