# From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@well.com> # To: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@ameritech.net> # Cc: George@Orwellian.Org, cypherpunks@lne.com # Date: Fri, 22 Jun 01 16:49PM EDT # Subject: Re: The Art of Submarine Warfare # # At 01:22 PM 6/22/2001 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote: # # > Listen to it again -- doesn't she say "I'm recording this"?? # # Yes, she does - but the recorder would either have been on her person (in # which case it would have been taken from her before she was sitting in the # back of the police car), or in her car. And the repy at Date: Fri, 22 Jun 01 14:20PM EDT And the repy at Date: Fri, 22 Jun 01 13:59PM EDT What does 'lne' stand for, "Late, or NEver"? I only received the above due to the direct Cc. ---- Anyway, I agree now it was a police recording. So, they can pull you over for no reason? She asked repeatedly if she'd done anything wrong, the Copper said it was a checkpoint thang. ---- Just got a Sony D-EJ721: a diskman that can play multi-session CD-RWs. Nice. ---- I can check out Radio Shack, etc, but does anyone have recommendations for (hidden) wireless transmitter mics? Also, what can take out a surveillance camera from a distance? An Edmund Scientific laser? How about the ones in a dark glass bowl? http://www.notbored.org
On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 06:08:49PM -0400, George@Orwellian.Org wrote:
# From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@well.com> # To: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@ameritech.net> # Cc: George@Orwellian.Org, cypherpunks@lne.com # Date: Fri, 22 Jun 01 16:49PM EDT # Subject: Re: The Art of Submarine Warfare # # At 01:22 PM 6/22/2001 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote: # # > Listen to it again -- doesn't she say "I'm recording this"?? # # Yes, she does - but the recorder would either have been on her person (in # which case it would have been taken from her before she was sitting in the # back of the police car), or in her car.
And the repy at Date: Fri, 22 Jun 01 14:20PM EDT And the repy at Date: Fri, 22 Jun 01 13:59PM EDT
What does 'lne' stand for, "Late, or NEver"?
I only received the above due to the direct Cc.
There's no cpunks mail in the queue at lne. If you're still subscribed (there's no "George@Orwellian.Org" in the subscriber list but I assume that's not the address you receive mail at) then it went out to wherever you are or to a site that MXd for you. Eric
At 06:08 PM 6/22/2001 -0400, George@Orwellian.Org wrote:
So, they can pull you over for no reason? She asked repeatedly if she'd done anything wrong, the Copper said it was a checkpoint thang.
The US Supreme Court last addressed this in November 2000 - their conclusion is that checkpoints may be legal if they're done for a permissible reason. The federal government may conduct checkpoints to identify illegal aliens near border crossings; and states and cities may conduct checkpoints to detect drunk drivers or license/equipment violations if the checkpoints are intended to ensure highway safety. Checkpoints are not permitted if they were operated, as they were in _City of Indianapolis v. Edmond_ <http://laws.findlaw.com/us/000/99-1030.html>, for a general law enforcement purpose. So, if you're a police department, don't set up any of those "drug dealer" checkpoints, because they're not OK - but if you see a lot of drug dealers in a particular neighborhood, you can go ahead and set up a drivers' license/registration/proof-of-insurance/taillight *safety* checkpoint in that neighborhood, and if you happen to run across any evidence of drug possession or use or sale while you're conducting a safety checkpoint, well, so be it . . . Also take a look at <http://www.roadblock.org>, though they don't have the _Edmond_ case on their site yet, so perhaps they're not wildly up-to-date. State constitutional provisions may provide greater privacy protection - California's doesn't, Oregon's does (though not necessarily in a car stop/checkpoint context), I've got no idea what Virginia's constitution says or how it's interpreted. I mention this law-geek point only as a reminder that there are frequently two constitutions regulating government behavior, and it's very common (even among lawyers) to forget about the state constitution. State constitutions are also a wonderful way for state courts to disagree with the US Supreme Court without getting overruled, at least in the direction of limiting government actors - they merely need to interpret their own state's constitution to be more protective of individual rights, where the US Supreme Court and the US Constitution represent a baseline or "floor" for protection, not the "ceiling". Oregon courts have done this with respect to search and seizure and have developed their own body of more sensible search and seizure jurisprudence which avoids the result-oriented federal trainwreck. California was doing this, too, but that got chopped off at the knees by a bunch of Republicans a few years ago and now CA's constitution is interpreted mostly as an identical copy of the US constitution, on criminal law topics.
I can check out Radio Shack, etc, but does anyone have recommendations for (hidden) wireless transmitter mics?
Be careful here, with your state's surveillance/wiretap/recording rules, with respect to being in a 1-party state or a 2-party state - I've heard that CA cops can be very aggressive re prosecution versus citizens who make audio recordings of them without consent.
Also, what can take out a surveillance camera from a distance? An Edmund Scientific laser? How about the ones in a dark glass bowl?
I have wondered about this but don't have answers. One direction of thought and research which might be productive is nondestructively temporarily disabling the camera, perhaps by flooding its light sensor with a focused beam of light, like a flashlight or laser - it's going to compensate for that level of lighting, leaving the rest of the frame underexposed, as long as it's misled by that local brightness. Also, if you're monkeying with cop cameras, that *would* probably be obstruction of justice or interfering with a police officer or whatever your local "don't fuck with the cops" statute is. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles@well.com "Organized crime is the price we pay for organization." -- Raymond Chandler
At 05:29 PM 6/22/2001 -0700, Greg Broiles wrote:
At 06:08 PM 6/22/2001 -0400, George@Orwellian.Org wrote:
Also, what can take out a surveillance camera from a distance? An Edmund Scientific laser? How about the ones in a dark glass bowl?
I have wondered about this but don't have answers. One direction of thought and research which might be productive is nondestructively temporarily disabling the camera, perhaps by flooding its light sensor with a focused beam of light, like a flashlight or laser - it's going to compensate for that level of lighting, leaving the rest of the frame underexposed, as long as it's misled by that local brightness.
Also, if you're monkeying with cop cameras, that *would* probably be obstruction of justice or interfering with a police officer or whatever your local "don't fuck with the cops" statute is.
No need to use something so targeted at the cop camera, just install rear-facing infrared floods and keep them on all the time. (Cadillac drivers with the new night-driving, IR, heads-up displays will be particularly upset..) The IR cut-off filters of most cameras are too broad to block invisible near IR, so the floods will cause the AGC to greatly darken the image as described above. steve
On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 11:50:04PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
No need to use something so targeted at the cop camera, just install rear-facing infrared floods and keep them on all the time. (Cadillac drivers with the new night-driving, IR, heads-up displays will be particularly upset..)
Not sure this is true. Last I knew, the Caddy stuff was a true FLIR, based on sensing thermal IR from warm objects and not an old fashioned WW II/Korea era near IR sniperscope based on IR illumination by an IR floodlight. I suppose this may have changed with actual product introduction, but I think the images in their ads were clearly FLIR thermal IR images. (And lest the distinction not be clear, thermal IR at room temperatures is long wave IR as black bodies at 20 C don't radiate a hell of a lot at say 900 nm.). An illuminator that would activate the video AGC or light sensors on camcorders would obviously have to be near IR as the optics and sensors used don't pass or detect much long wave IR at all. The IR cut-off filters of most cameras are too broad
to block invisible near IR, so the floods will cause the AGC to greatly darken the image as described above.
That is certainly true, although most CCD sensors will nicely detect and image the bright spot from the IR tail lights or whatever, and that would be a very good (and preserved on tape) indication of a deliberate intent which could easily result in nastier and more aggressive prosecution than might result from anything else during the stop.
steve
-- Dave Emery N1PRE, die@die.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2 5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18
Random roadside checks have been legal in many states for years.... I can remember them as far back as 1982 in Texas. Jon Beets Pacer Communications ----- Original Message ----- From: <George@orwellian.org> To: "Tim May, El Presidente" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 5:08 PM Subject: Re: The Art of Submarine Warfare
----
Anyway, I agree now it was a police recording.
So, they can pull you over for no reason? She asked repeatedly if she'd done anything wrong, the Copper said it was a checkpoint thang.
BUT - what are they randomly checking for? The officer only asks for her ID, to establish her identity, that's a law enforcement function, he never asks for her registration, which would marginally be a safety/compliance function. At 04:01 PM 6/22/01, Jon Beets wrote:
Random roadside checks have been legal in many states for years.... I can remember them as far back as 1982 in Texas.
Jon Beets Pacer Communications
----- Original Message ----- From: <George@orwellian.org> To: "Tim May, El Presidente" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 5:08 PM Subject: Re: The Art of Submarine Warfare
----
Anyway, I agree now it was a police recording.
So, they can pull you over for no reason? She asked repeatedly if she'd done anything wrong, the Copper said it was a checkpoint thang.
participants (7)
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Dave Emery
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Eric Murray
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Georgeï¼ Orwellian.Org
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Greg Broiles
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Jon Beets
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Reese
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Steve Schear