Re: PLO censoring pro-Iraqi sentiments
X-Sender: tcmay@mail.got.net Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:03:26 -0800 To: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>, cypherpunks@cyberpass.net From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net> Subject: Re: PLO censoring pro-Iraqi sentiments Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net Reply-To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net> X-Loop: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
[SHIT REMOVED]
This is why I cheered to see the U.S. gets its tail kicked in Somalia and have to retreat in disgrace. Alas, the U.S. planners just looked for another war, one we could "win," and they found a bombed out Bosnia to be the perfect place to "restore our dignity."
Amerika the Fascist.
--Tim May
You know Tim, I respect most of what you write, and I respect you in that you have your own free will and opinions and the right to express them, but what you have forgotten in your anarchistic ravings is that PEOPLE DIED IN SOMALIA, including a personal friend of mine. They were all somebody's son, brother, and friend. These soldiers went where they were ordered to go, as befits a soldier, and tried to do the job they were given and accomplish the mission, and for that EVERY ONE OF THEM DESERVES Y O U R RESPECT. I am quite sure the vast majority of them thought it was patently stupid to go to Somalia in the first place, but a soldier follows orders, legal ones, and tries to get the job done regardless of personal feelings. The next time you "cheer to see the U.S. gets its tail kicked", why don't you think about the American troops who lost their lives or were maimed, or who were doing something they may have been personally and morally against, but they chose to be professional soldiers, and instead of displaying cowardice, they tried to do what was asked of them. Think of the innocent civilians who inevitably die in the conflicts started by the megalomaniacs like Saddam Hussein. If you want to blame someone, and you bellow endlessly in every letter you write about blaming someone, why don't you blame the politicians who start the wars, who run the countries and step all over their own people, instead of the people who are made to do the dirty work? Your "cheering" was a blatant slap in the face to anyone who has ever served in uniform, and my only hope is that you will think about who should really deserve your ire next time before you so recklessly blurt it out. A lot of people like what you have to say most of the time, including me, but with the right to our freedom of speech comes a responsibility to speak wisely, which is something we could all strive to be better at, don't you think? Eric Tune
Eric Tune writes:
You know Tim, I respect most of what you write, and I respect you in that you have your own free will and opinions and the right to express them, but what you have forgotten in your anarchistic ravings is that PEOPLE DIED IN SOMALIA, including a personal friend of mine. They were all somebody's son, brother, and friend.
So were the 100,000 Iraqi military killed by Bush, and the 1,000,000 Iraqis of all ages killed by US sanctions. So were the civilians bulldozed into mass graves in Panama, so the country would look neat and tidy for the arrival of the ReportWhores. What the world needs now is not another mass killing of Iraqis by the United States government. What the world really needs now is a fifty dollar weapon that sinks aircraft carriers.
These soldiers went where they were ordered to go, as befits a soldier, and tried to do the job they were given and accomplish the mission, and for that EVERY ONE OF THEM DESERVES Y O U R RESPECT. I am quite sure the vast majority of them thought it was patently stupid to go to Somalia in the first place, but a soldier follows orders, legal ones, and tries to get the job done regardless of personal feelings.
Most of them would probably follow "legal orders" to fire upon American civilians too.
The next time you "cheer to see the U.S. gets its tail kicked", why don't you think about the American troops who lost their lives or were maimed, or who were doing something they may have been personally and morally against, but they chose to be professional soldiers, and instead of displaying cowardice, they tried to do what was asked of them.
The universe does not view the lives of Americans as more valuable than the lives of people murdered by Americans.
Think of the innocent civilians who inevitably die in the conflicts started by the megalomaniacs like Saddam Hussein.
You mean all those melted child car seats and scorched teddy bears on George Bush's "Highway of Death" leading out of Kuwait? Unfortunately, for all the braying Americans do about freedom, Americans can never be truly happy unless someone is telling them what to do, or they are telling someone else what to do, or they are bombing someone for not doing what they have told them to do. The only thing Americans understand is dead Americans. The only thing. I've always believed that communications functions most effectively when people are talked to in a language that they understand. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- on or about 980219:1407, in <3.0.5.32.19980219140712.007bda40@pop3.lvcablemodem.com>, "Eric J. Tune" <paladin@lvcablemodem.com> was purported to have expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
[SHIT REMOVED]
This is why I cheered to see the U.S. gets its tail kicked in Somalia and have to retreat in disgrace. Alas, the U.S. planners just looked for another war, one we could "win," and they found a bombed out Bosnia to be the perfect place to "restore our dignity."
Amerika the Fascist.
--Tim May
Eric J. Tune wrote:
You know Tim, I respect most of what you write, and I respect you in that you have your own free will and opinions and the right to express them, but what you have forgotten in your anarchistic ravings is that PEOPLE DIED IN SOMALIA, including a personal friend of mine. They were all somebody's son, brother, and friend [snip]
my oldest son's LAR recon/black unit had been stood down for Somalia, gear turned in, etc. we were finishing Christmas dinner [two additional NCO's who did not live close enough to 29 Palms were also guests] --just about 4pm, the 'phone rang... I knew, and they knew. Bush had decided to go to Somalia and the powers grabbed an always on standby high power unit: 21 LAV25s, etc. vehicles and all were on C5s in 14 hours. having personally received those calls before does not prepare you for the call when it is _your_ son heading out for his first chance to stare the beast in the face and stand it down... or come home in a body bag. Eric J. Tune wrote:
The next time you "cheer to see the U.S. gets its tail kicked", why don't you think about the American troops who lost their lives or were maimed, or who were doing something they may have been personally and morally against, but they chose to be professional soldiers, and instead of displaying cowardice, they tried to do what was asked of them. [snip]
escorting Bush was a piece of cake, but the brass figured they had two of these special recon companies and ordered them to secure North Mogadishu --they did and were shipped stateside; then Army's 10th Mountain got its ass kicked for some of the dumbest logistics planning, including the pickup armor column getting lost, no water, and no night vision goggles... then Uncle put its tail between its legs and came home. how do you think the all the families with sons, husbands, lovers, siblings, etc. felt with the spectacle of a dead (and initially unidentified pending notification of kin) service man out there just doing his duty for his country is being dragged around the dirt streets of a shithole? the boy's parents saw it on television before the Army could get a man out to their house to tell them (yes, it is done in person). my _boy_ came home a changed _man_ after live ammo on live targets and no rubber bullets --and did what all returning jarheads do after first blood --got married as soon as possible. Eric J. Tune wrote:
Your "cheering" was a blatant slap in the face to anyone who has ever served in uniform. [snip]
absolutely. misplaced criticism and a personal offense to me as well as all other servicemen. it is one thing to deplore the various wars, police actions, dirty tricks, etc. which the U.S. Presidents and spook shows are always using to defend "our" interests around the world -it is another to criticize and ridicule the men who fight and die. I have no regrets for what I did, and did too well, but I sure as hell have regrets for whom it was done: total sleezeballs who have taken TR's maxim to mean: "speak loudly and use a big stick" --it's only business, son.
...with the right to our freedom of speech comes a responsibility to speak wisely..
well, on this point, the thorn of what is "wisely" is defined differently by everyone; freedom of speech is just that-- if we restrict Tim's, then we lose our own freedom. Tim gets to say his piece, and we get to lump it --or lump Tim. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be iQBVAwUBNOzVpbR8UA6T6u61AQGN/QIAnQC2/ZUMCwT9M1hLToVdwETxSIkn3zah 4kYcPausEzc4FB64Pomg5CI2UKgiozCGrfv79ijwQmC3cn848lWxSQ== =GjmF -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
At 4:07 PM -0800 2/19/98, Attila T. Hun wrote:
Eric J. Tune wrote:
Your "cheering" was a blatant slap in the face to anyone who has ever served in uniform. [snip]
absolutely. misplaced criticism and a personal offense to me as well as all other servicemen.
"Personal offense"? Gee, I'm crushed. (Attila, you wrote such a nice rant about fascist Amerika...then decided to be "offended" when your predictable hot button was pressed: any criticism of the military and any cheering of its defeats. So predictable.) I'll repeat: I cheer when I see the U.S. swatted down in its foreign adventures. While I don't necessarily with harm to specific soldiers, they're just pawns in a geopolitical power game. Eggs have to be broken to make omelettes, and sometimes planes have to be shot down, aircraft carriers have to be sunk (my fondest wish for Operation Wag the Dog), and soldiers have to be stuck by the pikes of the peasants (as in Somalia). War is hell. Nothing new there. To _not_ want the U.S. to be taught a lesson just because it means some soldiers must die as part of the lesson (else there is no lesson, of course) is to let the USG do anything it wants. By the way, the same arguments--identical in all ways--about individual sons (and, sometimes, daughters) dying in the cause of war can be used in many other arenas. For example, no doubt the CIA agent killed in Athens when his name was published in a newspaper had parents, perhaps a wife and children. So? He was still a spy, and some folks angry at having imperialist spies in their midst offed him. Rough justice. And no doubt some government soldiers in Burma, killed by rebel forces, also had mothers and fathers, blah blah blah. Both of these examples have crypto connections: - the rebel forces in Myanmar/Burma use PGP. Ergo, PGP is helping "terrorists" kill government soldiers. - the publication of lists of CIA and DIA agents via "whistleblowing remailers" is expected to increase. Remailers _will_ be used by "enemies of the U.S. government." On this one, Louis Freeh and I have long been in agreement, me for even longer than he's known what the issues are. Get used to it. When Johhnie or Hans or Sergei goes to war, he may die. And perhaps because of Cypherpunks technologies. All part of the scheme of things.
Tim gets to say his piece, and we get to lump it --or lump Tim.
Another empty threat from Attila? --Tim May Just Say No to "Big Brother Inside" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^3,021,377 | black markets, collapse of governments.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- on or about 980219:1723, in <v0310280db1128853d74c@[207.167.93.63]>, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> was purported to have expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:
At 4:07 PM -0800 2/19/98, Attila T. Hun wrote:
absolutely. misplaced criticism and a personal offense to me as well as all other servicemen.
at 980219:1723, Tim May wrote:
"Personal offense"? Gee, I'm crushed. (Attila, you wrote such a nice rant about fascist Amerika...then decided to be "offended" when your predictable hot button was pressed: any criticism of the military and any cheering of its defeats. So predictable.)
No, Tim, not predictable --your cheers are misplaced. Amerika is fascist at best; we do not have the government my ancestors, and probably yours, fought to create 222 years ago. today's Federal Hamiltonian style central government does not qualify as a republic, at best it is a plutocracy. No, my objection is _where_ you place your cheers. we need to bring down the fascists, not kill our fighting men, most of whom still believe in America the Beautiful, not the cesspool you and I and the rest know it has become. we almost had a military arrest of Clinton for treason in his first term, but a number of key generals and admirals were killed. turn your cheers at American defeats into jears to the heart of the problem in Washington. I'm not advocating a sapper, but somebody better wake the serfs.
Eggs have to be broken to make omelettes
yes, but there is an unlimited supply of eggs in the minds of the politicians; they'll go on until they are gone, then shrug their shoulders and say: "we tried...." if the US suffers some really significant defeat, that will be the excuse for martial law and we will see more than the Admirality flag flying in every U.S. courtroom (courtesy of FDR and 08 Mar 33). If we run out of eggs, we will be overrun; and I may post a significant historical document, overlooked by all but a few, on that point. Amerika is fast heading towards moral bankruptcy because "it feels good" --just like the dog who licks his balls because he can.
aircraft carriers have to be sunk (my fondest wish for Operation Wag the Dog),
5,000 men to teach a whoring asshole like Clinton what? if Saddam, or friends, sinks a carrier, the asshole will nuke the middle east while every Joe Couch Potato screams for blood --then what?
War is hell. Nothing new there.
never was and never will be. and war should be avoided at all costs. if the US was a good friend overseas instead of the greedy bastards and manipulators they have been most of this entire century, every country in the world would not hate the U.S. --except maybe the Brits. Amerika has destabilized close to 90% of the world governments at one point of another in this century, including the Labour government preceding Thatcher. check the list of foreign policy failures in the mideast which I just posted. the American fools put every one of the now anti-US bastards in power: Syria, Iraq, Libya, Jordon, and previously Iran, Egypt, and Lebanon. Britain kicked the Palestinians off the land they farmed since the diaspora --almost 2,000 years, and now the U.S props up both Israel and the PLO (half-heartedly, which is more than the rest of the Arabs do for Arafat, other than noise). The most stupid action after world war 2 was to permit Britain to establish Israel --only exceeded by our stupidity of continuing to support a pig like Bibbi. Amerika has made so many enemies overseas with its Pax Americana policies that we do not have enough soldiers to be the world's policemen --and we should never have been in that position in the first place, except Amerika has always been the home of the free --the freedom to rape, pillage, and burn your fellow man, particularly if they are someplace else.
To _not_ want the U.S. to be taught a lesson just because it means some soldiers must die as part of the lesson (else there is no lesson, of course) is to let the USG do anything it wants.
no, the issue is to rectify the situation at the root: the cesspool. everyone one of us, regardless of our beliefs, is responsible for the meglomaniacs in our government. if those of us with supposed intelligence can not get Joe Couch Potato off his ass --whose fault is it? Clinton will get them off their collective asses if an aircraft carrier goes down --even if he scuttles it.
Get used to it. When Johhnie or Hans or Sergei goes to war, he may die. And perhaps because of Cypherpunks technologies. All part of the scheme of things.
doesn't need to be... I am too well aware of what I have contributed first in black ops and then in technology until I got smart enough 20+ years ago to refuse any direct military work. even so, it does not help withholding (but it feels good); high-tech only kills more with less effort.
Tim gets to say his piece,
and we get to lump it --or lump Tim.
Another empty threat from Attila?
no, Tim, not at all, just a cheap pun! someday maybe I'll even be creative enough to coin a new "Dew Drop Inn" I'll defend to the death your right to say whatever you wish; obviously, I also reserve the right to bitch! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be iQBVAwUBNOztA7R8UA6T6u61AQF/awH/VbccORGJYCe+Xd4dIMRraFl8tOA/dB80 zLeNC5zWFxyQr4dQw94ySIy++XI/lkl/oi3csi3RTl6lw2SIJsfDJQ== =HxNf -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
At 2:07 PM -0800 2/19/98, Eric J. Tune wrote:
[SHIT REMOVED]
I think this item, and your other frothings, show why you should not be taken seriously. Once again, a lurker who has never posted any substantive ideas delurks to foam and spew insults. In any case, all of the arguments I have seen from you boil down to that tired old chestnut: "My country, right or wrong." A good attitude for cannon fodder to have. Not such a good attitude for free men to have. Time to add you to my ever-growing killfile. --Tim May Just Say No to "Big Brother Inside" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^3,021,377 | black markets, collapse of governments.
PEOPLE DIED IN SOMALIA, including a personal friend of mine. They were all somebody's son, brother, and friend [snip] my oldest son's LAR recon/black unit had been stood down for Somalia, gear turned in, etc. ... how do you think the all the families with sons, husbands, lovers, siblings, etc. felt with the spectacle of a dead
Sorry to hear about your friend, and I'm glad your son got back. A friend of mine lives in Somalia about half the time, except when his wife's tribe's over in Ethiopia. They've been through years of civil war, in a society that until the colonialists took over was extremely free and relatively peaceful (for a bunch of semi-nomadic cattle herders armed to the teeth like pre-industrial Swiss; they tend to have occasional short armed squabbles when the normal social structures for peacefully resolving differences fail) and the wars for control of the post-colonial government have made it impossible for their economy to do well during drought. Michael's friends were quite pleased at kicking the UN's butts, and at kicking the US Army's butts, but they thought that even if there hadn't been a civil war going on, the idea of trying to disarm Somalis is blatantly foolish - you'd have better luck trying to disarm an NRA convention, where people carry guns for fun rather than to protect their families and livestock like Somalis. After all, most NRA members believe in Nations and Governments; Somalis believe in their families and tribes and the Law, and any "leader" who expects blind obedience from his followers quickly finds out that nobody's following him. ...
absolutely. misplaced criticism and a personal offense to me as well as all other servicemen.
Sending US soldiers in to do a fool's errand like that should offend you even more. And telling a free people that they should give up the guns they protect their families with because the UN will take care of protecting them is an offense to them. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- on or about 980220:2144, in <3.0.5.32.19980220214430.008be9a0@popd.ix.netcom.com>, Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com> was purported to have expostulated to perpetuate an opinion: [snip]
...
absolutely. misplaced criticism and a personal offense to me as well as all other servicemen.
Sending US soldiers in to do a fool's errand like that should offend you even more.
absolutely, the government has obviously offended me more by its incredible stupidity: Vietnam, Somalia, Panama, Honduras, and the rest of their ill-conceived police actions and meddling; installing Khadafi, Hussein, the Shah, Nasser, whatever his name is in Syria, etc.; and now, the incredible attempt of Bubba to cover his domestic problems of an insatiable wandering dick with a "surgical" strike on the long suffering Iraqi population who will again be the collateral damage which doesn't happen (at least in theory). all the U.S. gains is an Iraqi population who hate the U.S. even more for our stupidity and therefore turn to Saddam who at least gives them pride, even if it does not feed their children --not to mention the enmity of the rest of the Arab world. even Iran is supporting Iraq which ought to tell us something. Pax Americana --yeah, Americana it is, but where's the Pax? if Bubba's going to press the button, he might as well press the big one and leave everything east of the beaches in Tel Aviv, all the way to Burma, a glass parking lot. out of the ashes of Iraq and the American morality, dont be surprised to see the man in the blue turban rise like the phoenix...
And telling a free people that they should give up the guns they protect their families with because the UN will take care of protecting them is an offense to them.
well, as I said: I have no regrets for what I did, but I sure as hell have regrets for whom I did the deeds. the sorry bastards who claim to be "my" government have no claim on my respect. as I said before: is it not odd that the more the government tries to abridge our freedom of speech, the more they want to confiscate our weapons? a well-armed populace is a threat to a corrupt, suppressive government; the first step in subjugating the American population to become part of the UN/NWO "family" is to confiscate personal arms in the name of public safety --or, the fear of criminal actions by loose cannons, etc. arms registration is the first step towards confiscation. I've been trying to find something about that pack of thieves trying to deify themselves that has not earned my contempt. I'll announce it, when I find it, but dont hold your breath. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be iQBVAwUBNO7sN7R8UA6T6u61AQEPggH/SQ8zCg9XDzAqp/EGYtZXk8Y/r7TY1i8V a4iGgShOPlo/vdXQPFWni6yQHvlLZmweO5R1plS4XeyHkJa3xcoabA== =zbOm -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
participants (5)
-
Attila T. Hun -
Bill Stewart -
Eric Cordian -
Eric J. Tune -
Tim May