Re: GPS bugs (was: Jim Bell Trial: Third Day (fwd))
auto211076@hushmail.com wrote:
Third Day: Jim Bell trial
The defense requested information about the tracking device that was
attached
to Jim Bell's car: the type, make, and where installed in the car. London cited "law enforcement privilege" and argued that giving out that information would enable future surveillance subjects to find and dismantle such devices. (Earlier in the trial, it was mentioned that this was the first use of a GPS tracking device in the area.)
From what little I know of GPS, the receiver must be able to "see sky." So there can't be any metal objects between it and the sky. That means it's unlikely for it to be on the underside of the car. Possible installation places would be under the "skin" above the dashboard, any place that has line of sight to the windshield or back window. If the car is a vinyl top, under the roof would be good hiding place.
Other speculation was that it might have been inside a vinyl bumper.
Of course the main body of the "bug" can be hidden anywhere inside the car, but the antena needs to see sky.
These things are usually cellphone enabled, so that way they don't constantly transmit, and won't be easily caught by sweeps.
Gordon's testimony was that it was a continuously-transmitting bug. Which of course brought up the question of the power supply. The bug transmitted on an RF frequency. Bell had mentioned to friends that he believed that he had been bugged, but lacking an RF frequency analyzer, he had been unable to find the bug. He apparently was concerned that both his house and car were bugged. Although why he didn't hire the services of a "bug-sweeper" is beyond me.
Defenses would include GPS and cell phone jammers, but these would have to be on 24/7, thus draining the car's battery. GPS jammer would be more desireable, since the cell phone side is just used to download the logs of where the car has been, and the logs can be recovered by physically recovering the bug.
The power supply was a considerable source of speculation. If the bug had been attached to the battery, then it would have been much more detectable. Stories had it that Bell had checked under the hood; it would not take more than a VOM to detect a discharge.
One thing I don't know about in relation to GPS: are the military bits sent on different frequencies than the civilian bits? Or are they just encrypted? If they're different frequencies, then, you'd have to know these to build an effective jammer.
There was no discussion of military bits vs. civilian bits, rather military grade vs. civilian grade.
I of course have no information on what was actually installed in Jim Bell's car, where, how, or by whom, except as emails have described here, and I take this with a grain of salt.
And some degree of skepticism has to be attached to the court testimony. It was painfully clear that the prosecutor had little handle on technical issues, and that even the agent who bugged Bell's car had limited knowledge of how the device worked. Some of the descriptions given in court about how GPS works were clearly wrong.
ObDisclaimer to Jeff Gordon and crew: this email posting does not constitute any sort of intent to do anything. It is mereley an excercise of my constitutionally protected rights to freedom of speech. Recall that by the oath you have taken to protect and uphold the laws of the United States of America when you first decided to work for the government, you are required to protect defend my right to freedom of speech.
If you weren't on the radar before, you are now. So are you planning on rooming with Jim or C.J.? Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com
auto211076@hushmail.com wrote:
Other speculation was that it might have been inside a vinyl bumper.
Ah, yes, that would be another place. :)
Gordon's testimony was that it was a continuously-transmitting bug. Which of course brought up the question of the power supply.
I've read that bit later on, that it would beep him if he got out of a specific range. I think you could wire up a bug to whatever recharges the battery and have the bug recharge it's batteries that way.. that would of course increase the size. I'm just theorizing on bug design of course... :)
The power supply was a considerable source of speculation. If the bug had been attached to the battery, then it would have been much more detectable. Stories had it that Bell had checked under the hood; it would not take more than a VOM to detect a discharge.
Sure. So if the question is that the bug would beep Gordon when Bell got out of a certain radius, then the car was running, hence you wouldn't have to drain the battery constantly. And they claim the bug was constantly transmitting. That's a pretty stupid way to implement a bug as at that point you could sweep for it. But who knows what kind of spread spectrum send a burst/chirp for 1ms every two minutes kind of bug it would be? :)
There was no discussion of military bits vs. civilian bits, rather military grade vs. civilian grade.
Um, yes, military grade versus civilian grade GPS. My question now is are the bits of mil GPS info transmitted at the same frequencies as the civilian bits of data which are randomized? If they're different, then a GPS jammer would have to spit junk out on both sets.
If you weren't on the radar before, you are now.
So are you planning on rooming with Jim or C.J.?
Guy gets out of bar slurring his speech, scrambles around walking out of balance. Goes to his car after many burps and hicckups, tries to insert his key into the lock and misses several times, gets it open, turns on the engine and starts to drive. Cop pulls him over, administers breathalizer test. Cop is surprised to find the guy has a blood alcohol level of zero. "How's that possible he asks the guy?" Guy answers "I'm tonight's designated decoy." (This was a cartoon somewhere.) So, yeah, I'm tonight's designated decoy. Let the feds monitor me scratching my butt, watching cartoons and burping, while the next Jim Bell does whatever it is he is doing. :) I suppose they could charge me with wasting taxpayer money, but hey, I didn't invent that racket. -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_@_sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------
At 07:04 PM 04/12/2001 -0400, Sunder and somebody wrote:
The power supply was a considerable source of speculation. If the bug had been attached to the battery, then it would have been much more detectable. Stories had it that Bell had checked under the hood; it would not take more than a VOM to detect a discharge. I think you could wire up a bug to whatever recharges the battery and have the bug recharge it's batteries that way.. that would of course increase the size. I'm just theorizing on bug design of course... :)
"Whatever recharges the battery" in a car is the alternator. You'd wire it up to a battery feed instead - the lighting system is distributed widely enough around the car that that's probably convenient if you want to put it somewhere harder to see.
There was no discussion of military bits vs. civilian bits, rather military grade vs. civilian grade.
Doesn't matter - they're not trying to locate Bell within 100 feet to target him with nuclear weapons, just keep general track of where he's going and be able to demonstrate where his car was at least to the across-the-state-line level of accuracy.
Right. There was some discussion of "military uses this device" during direct exam, but the prosecutor was tech-clueless and so was the witness, beyond standard drudge insert-device-here skills, so I wouldn't rely on them. See my Wired article, easily ref'd at cluebot.com, for exact quotes. My sole exchange of words with Jeff Gordon during the entire trial came during this time. I asked him whether it was military grade and he backed away, channeling bubonic plague vibes, and said he couldn't -- probably meant wouldn't -- answer the question. Fled for the safety of the prosecution's counsel table, where he is an honorary lawyer, you see. -Declan On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 03:50:38PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
Doesn't matter - they're not trying to locate Bell within 100 feet to target him with nuclear weapons, just keep general track of where he's going and be able to demonstrate where his car was at least to the across-the-state-line level of accuracy.
this could have been a cell transmitter (like a cell phone). a digital phone is very difficult to 'sweep' for, and the powersupply could be a parallel string of small batteries providing several days of xmit power. more battery conversation could be had using a voice operated microphone. as for location identification, perhaps this configuration could use the same cell phone triangulation techniques introduced a few years ago for 911 help (not gps based.) just speculation of course. phillip
-----Original Message----- From: owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM [mailto:owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Declan McCullagh Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 8:48 PM To: Bill Stewart Cc: Sunder; cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com Subject: Re: GPS bugs (was: Jim Bell Trial: Third Day (fwd))
Right. There was some discussion of "military uses this device" during direct exam, but the prosecutor was tech-clueless and so was the witness, beyond standard drudge insert-device-here skills, so I wouldn't rely on them. See my Wired article, easily ref'd at cluebot.com, for exact quotes.
My sole exchange of words with Jeff Gordon during the entire trial came during this time. I asked him whether it was military grade and he backed away, channeling bubonic plague vibes, and said he couldn't -- probably meant wouldn't -- answer the question. Fled for the safety of the prosecution's counsel table, where he is an honorary lawyer, you see.
-Declan
On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 03:50:38PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
Doesn't matter - they're not trying to locate Bell within 100 feet to target him with nuclear weapons, just keep general track of where he's going and be able to demonstrate where his car was at least to the across-the-state-line level of accuracy.
On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, Phillip H. Zakas wrote:
this could have been a cell transmitter (like a cell phone). a digital phone is very difficult to 'sweep' for, and the powersupply could be a
Not at all, the secret is 'IF'. If the power is on those little oscillators are humming. ____________________________________________________________________ The ultimate authority...resides in the people alone. James Madison The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
participants (7)
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auto211076ï¼ hushmail.com -
Bill Stewart -
Declan McCullagh -
Jim Choate -
Phillip H. Zakas -
Reese -
Sunder