...I'm sure most are aware that random searches has begun here in NYC, at subway stations and in the LIRR. Contraband (drugs, etc...) can get the owner arrested. The next step, of course, will be to start grabbing anyone carrying terrorist propaganda, such as the Qu'ran, leaflets, or even the New York Times. The sad thing is that it is still absurdly easy to get whatever you want into the subways. For one, not every station has any kind of significant police presence (funny, but the Chambers street station this morning had multiple possible places where someone could enter with a backpack, despite the fact that it opens directly inside "Ground Zero" and the path Trains to New Jersey). But even if there were police everywhere, there are still many places between stations where someone determined could enter. OK, OK...so the police are deterrents against a few lone crazy copycats, who don't have enough sense to enter away from police line-of-site. But it sure seems damned silly to be giving up constitutional protection for the sake of an image of protection.
At 11:00 AM 7/22/2005, Tyler Durden wrote:
OK, OK...so the police are deterrents against a few lone crazy copycats, who don't have enough sense to enter away from police line-of-site. But it sure seems damned silly to be giving up constitutional protection for the sake of an image of protection.
For now you can refuse the search just as with the airlines by declining to travel. Since the searches are "random" you can try again via another entrance until you make it into the system without a search. Or you can decline to use government transportation entirely and call 212-777-7777 for the Tel Aviv car service (most of who's drivers are the sons of Hagar rather than the sons of Ruth in spite of it's name). DCF
At 02:08 PM 7/22/2005, Duncan Frissell wrote:
entrance until you make it into the system without a search. Or you can decline to use government transportation entirely and call 212-777-7777 for the Tel Aviv car service (most of who's drivers are the sons of Hagar rather than the sons of Ruth in spite of it's name).
DCF
Oops! I meant, of course: Or you can decline to use government transportation entirely and call 212-777-7777 for the Tel Aviv car service (most of who's drivers are the sons of Hagar rather than the sons of Sarah in spite of its name).
--- Tyler Durden <camera_lumina@hotmail.com> wrote:
...I'm sure most are aware that random searches has begun here in NYC, at subway stations and in the LIRR. Contraband (drugs, etc...) can get the owner arrested. The next step, of course, will be to start grabbing anyone carrying terrorist propaganda, such as the Qu'ran, leaflets, or even the New York Times.
You fucking 'tard; nobody is going to be arrested for carrying a copy of the NYT. This deliberate abrogation of the right to be free of unreasonable search and seizure is typical of the way authorities abuse process. This sort of thing happens _all the time_. Here's how the scam works (for those of you who require that their information comes pre-chewed): J. Random Authority will decide that he or she wishes to advance the incremental fait accompli of the tiered police state. He or she examines the political landscape of the moment and identifies a flimsy excuse that may be used to backstop this-or-that draconian measure. In this case, random searches of transit passengers. It is expected that the flagrant violation of the law by the authorites for some contrived need will eventually be examined in court by virtue of some citizen petition that is made in a fit of outrage or pique. Depending on the political reality of the moment, the courts may be encouraged to rule in such a way as to force the complainant through the expensive and time-consuming task of going in front of the Supreme Court. In the meantime, the authorities carry on with their blatantly illegal activities and wait for the courts to rule them in the wrong; if that actually occurs -- by no means a sure thing when science, reason, and logic are habitually excluded from judicial processes. As a nice side effect, many actions of this sort are undertaken with the secondary motive of outraging and provoking so-called undesireable elements within the affected population. In North America, this is the business-as-usual model of government interacting with its citizens. And since every judicial ruling has a small but finite chance of being ruled in the Government's favour, no matter how absurd such a ruling might be, the tiered authoritarian and plutocratic police state is thus incrimentally realized.
The sad thing is that it is still absurdly easy to get whatever you want into the subways. For one, not every station has any kind of significant police presence (funny, but the Chambers street station this morning had multiple possible places where someone could enter with a backpack, despite the fact that it opens directly inside "Ground Zero" and the path Trains to New Jersey). But even if there were police everywhere, there are still many places between stations where someone determined could enter.
Not to mention the subtle, expensive, and time-consuming methods for putting people and things in-place that tend to be favoured by the Usual Suspects.
OK, OK...so the police are deterrents against a few lone crazy copycats, who don't have enough sense to enter away from police line-of-site. But it sure seems damned silly to be giving up constitutional protection for the sake of an image of protection.
You got one thing right: it's damned silly. Regards, Steve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
From: Steve Thompson <steve49152@yahoo.ca> To: cypherpunks@jfet.org Subject: Re: Well, they got what they want... Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:01:30 -0400 (EDT)
--- Tyler Durden <camera_lumina@hotmail.com> wrote:
...I'm sure most are aware that random searches has begun here in NYC, at subway stations and in the LIRR. Contraband (drugs, etc...) can get the owner arrested. The next step, of course, will be to start grabbing anyone carrying terrorist propaganda, such as the Qu'ran, leaflets, or even the New York Times.
You fucking 'tard; nobody is going to be arrested for carrying a copy of the NYT.
Well, if you're saying what I think you're saying, I'm still not so sure. "Lies of the Times" indeed...the Times "Liberal" compared to NYPost, etc...is like Kodos compared to Kang. BUT, -local- authorities just might declare it "Liberal Propaganda". Or worse, ANY litereature (left, right) will be suspect. Is this paranoid? A year or two I would have thought so. But things have gotten so out of wack that anything goes. Cellphones, of course, are the latest scary devices, and here in NYC the towers for them are down in key infrastructural places. I could easily see that being expanded into the Wall Street/downtown area, where we already have multiple barricades and machine gun armed cops. Saw a local security expert on the news, and he stated the obvious: Random searches and whatnot are going to do zero for someone determined, but "might" deter someone who was "thinking about" blowing up the A train. In other words, everyone here in NYC knows that we've given up a lot for the sake of the appearence of security, but no one seems to give a damn.
Tyler Durden wrote:
Saw a local security expert on the news, and he stated the obvious: Random searches and whatnot are going to do zero for someone determined, but "might" deter someone who was "thinking about" blowing up the A train. In other words, everyone here in NYC knows that we've given up a lot for the sake of the appearence of security, but no one seems to give a damn.
I wouldn't say "we've given up" at all - after all, we've had no choice in the matter. We weren't asked if we wanted to be searched, we weren't asked if we were willing to give up liberty for the appearance of security, we weren't asked if we were ok with atrocities such as the unpatriot act, or the national ID disguised as a standardized driver's license, we weren't asked if we were willing to pay lots of tax dollars to finance more police on every corner and all the toys that they have purchased for these tasks, or the various hollow cement "flower" pots, and other barricades. It's not exactly a liberty that we have sacrificed, when it was taken away without consent. There is another word for this: theft.
sunder wrote:
Tyler Durden wrote:
In other words, everyone here in NYC knows that we've >
given up a lot for the sake of the appearence of security, but no one > seems to give a damn.
I wouldn't say "we've given up" at all - after all, we've had no choice in the matter. We weren't asked if we wanted to be searched, we weren't asked if we were willing to give up liberty for the appearance of security, we weren't asked if we were ok with atrocities such as the unpatriot act, or the national ID disguised as a standardized driver's license, we weren't asked if we were willing to pay lots of tax dollars to finance more police on every corner and all the toys that they have purchased for these tasks, or the various hollow cement "flower" pots, and other barricades.
Sure we have been asked. We get asked every two years, which means twice already since 9/11. We keep electing the same assholes who gave us the patriot act, and the national ID cards, and the "assault weapons" ban and all of the Know Your Customer / anti-money-laundering regulations, and the anti-drug laws. "We" have the power to stop all of this if we choose. GH _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
--- Tyler Durden <camera_lumina@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Steve Thompson <steve49152@yahoo.ca> To: cypherpunks@jfet.org Subject: Re: Well, they got what they want... Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:01:30 -0400 (EDT)
--- Tyler Durden <camera_lumina@hotmail.com> wrote:
...I'm sure most are aware that random searches has begun here in NYC, at subway stations and in the LIRR. Contraband (drugs, etc...) can get the owner arrested. The next step, of course, will be to start grabbing anyone carrying terrorist propaganda, such as the Qu'ran, leaflets, or even the New York Times.
You fucking 'tard; nobody is going to be arrested for carrying a copy of the NYT.
Well, if you're saying what I think you're saying, I'm still not so sure.
Well, what do you *think* I'm saying? Perhaps I could clarify my post.
"Lies of the Times" indeed...the Times "Liberal" compared to NYPost, etc...is like Kodos compared to Kang.
I fail to see the relevance. Domestic security services haven't spent the last few decades co-opting the press for nothing. As far as I'm concerned, it is ludicrous to suggest that quasi-offical state press organs will produce product that will in any way be candidate materials for classification as subversive publications. This premise, however, depends somewhat on the observation that the so-called left and right-wing divisions of the political spectrum are largely illusory. The most strident critics of diametric political opposites in the press and elsewhere would disagree, but their very occupations are rather dependent upon the perception that the evident differences in ideology are more than superficial. But as far as I'm concerned, there is no meaningful difference in most cases.
BUT, -local- authorities just might declare it "Liberal Propaganda". Or worse, ANY litereature (left, right) will be suspect.
Uh-huh.
Is this paranoid?
Yes, but in the wrong way. Which makes you either an idiot or a JBT troll. Possibly both.
A year or two I would have thought so. But things have gotten so out of wack that anything goes. Cellphones, of course, are the latest scary devices, and here in NYC the towers for them are down in key infrastructural places. I could easily see that being expanded into the Wall Street/downtown area, where we already have multiple barricades and machine gun armed cops.
I agree that cell-phones are scary devices, but only because they are proprietary, and because the phone companies are just as bad as the press when it comes to co-operating with the so-called law-enfocement community. Anyone recall Operation Sundevil and friends?
Saw a local security expert on the news, and he stated the obvious:
Blah, blah, blah.
Random searches and whatnot are going to do zero for someone determined, but "might" deter someone who was "thinking about" blowing up the A train. In other words, everyone here in NYC
Uh-huh. Y'know the police planted a stupid story in the local media here (toronto) not too long ago. They said that some wack-job had been deterred from going on a psychotic rampage with his evil guns because he met a friendly dog in a park, and that the dog made him re-assess his homocidal/suicidal ideation. I imgaine the people who thought that one up should cut down on their intake of hallucinogens and laughing gas. As for propogating the silly idea that bombs can be detonated by remote-control with a cell-phone trigger... Well, that's really fucking stupid. Any half-wit could do just as good a job with a one-way pager, or a digital watch -- if he were not so inclined as to cobble toghether a 555 timer and some glue in a shielded enclosure. As I mentioned elsewhere, science, logic, and fact have no major role to play in the operation of courts or law enforcement today. That should be inexcusable to anyone who expects to rely on science, logic, or fact in any other areas of life; such as medicine or transportation, for instance.
knows that we've given up a lot for the sake of the appearence of security, but no one seems to give a damn.
Well ain't that just too fuckin' bad. Regards, Steve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
This premise, however, depends somewhat on the observation that the so-called left and right-wing divisions of the political spectrum are largely illusory. The most strident critics of diametric political opposites in the press and elsewhere would disagree, but their very occupations are rather dependent upon the perception that the evident differences in ideology are more than superficial. But as far as I'm concerned, there is no meaningful difference in most cases.
Yeah...the reason you know to say that is because I just made that point. Local authorities, however, can take these differences as meaningful and act upon them.
Is this paranoid?
Yes, but in the wrong way. Which makes you either an idiot or a JBT troll. Possibly both.
What the fuck are you talking about? I don't have a clue.
Uh-huh. Y'know the police planted a stupid story in the local media here (toronto) not too long ago. They said that some wack-job had been deterred from going on a psychotic rampage with his evil guns because he met a friendly dog in a park, and that the dog made him re-assess his homocidal/suicidal ideation. I imgaine the people who thought that one up should cut down on their intake of hallucinogens and laughing gas.
Well, maybe up in Canada. Such a story would be seen as very meaningful here in most of the States, "proof" that we're responding correctly. In other words, as stupid as Canadians can be, Americans are often far stupider. And more belligerent, too, which is why we're in this mess. -TD
--- Tyler Durden <camera_lumina@hotmail.com> wrote:
This premise, however, depends somewhat on the observation that the so-called left and right-wing divisions of the political spectrum are largely illusory. The most strident critics of diametric political opposites in the press and elsewhere would disagree, but their very occupations are rather dependent upon the perception that the evident differences in ideology are more than superficial. But as far as I'm concerned, there is no meaningful difference in most cases.
Yeah...the reason you know to say that is because I just made that point.
Is that correct? 'Cause it looks to me like you're farting chaff.
Local authorities, however, can take these differences as meaningful and act upon them.
Yes they can. But should they?
Is this paranoid?
Yes, but in the wrong way. Which makes you either an idiot or a JBT troll. Possibly both.
What the fuck are you talking about? I don't have a clue.
Clue: JBT = Jack-booted thug. Within the cypherpunks list membership, this is usually an identifier referring to people working for the so-called law-enforcement arm of a government -- particulaly one of the federal-level agencies whose personnel believe themselves to be entitled to dictate terms of existence to mere mortals.
Uh-huh. Y'know the police planted a stupid story in the local media here (toronto) not too long ago. They said that some wack-job had been deterred from going on a psychotic rampage with his evil guns because he met a friendly dog in a park, and that the dog made him re-assess his homocidal/suicidal ideation. I imgaine the people who thought that one up should cut down on their intake of hallucinogens and laughing gas.
Well, maybe up in Canada. Such a story would be seen as very meaningful here in most of the States, "proof" that we're responding correctly. In other
words, as stupid as Canadians can be, Americans are often far stupider. And more belligerent, too, which is why we're in this mess.
I think you would better serve yourself if you were employed doing something productive as opposed to being occupied doing something that merely seems productive. Regards, Steve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Well, apparently you haven't been getting any of my posts to the Al-Qaeda node, otherwise the context would be clear. As for...
Local authorities, however, can take these differences as meaningful and act upon them.
Yes they can. But should they?
From their perspective? Of course. Increased civilian fear=increased job security. That's the whole name of this game here, and probably a big (though arguably unconscious) motivation for the Iraq war. Peace is bad business for the military industrial complex.
Clue: JBT = Jack-booted thug. Within the cypherpunks list membership, this is usually an identifier referring to people working for the so-called law-enforcement arm of a government -- particulaly one of the federal-level agencies whose personnel believe themselves to be entitled to dictate terms of existence to mere mortals.
Huh? I've been on the list since 2001 and this may be the first I've seen this acronym. meanwhile, I'm the guy who initiated the "Stash Burn" thread amongst a myriad of enabling ideas, whereas the only stuff I've seen come through with your name on it is second hand, Hettinga-esque "reporting" (though Hettinga's has auto-edited himself to the point of being fairly interesting of late). So I can only wonder as to your motivation here, Mr "JBT".
I think you would better serve yourself if you were employed doing something productive as opposed to being occupied doing something that merely seems productive.
This is where I suspect that you're on the Rock. A thought is not coherent merely because you can express it in grammatically correct sentences. -TD
--- Tyler Durden <camera_lumina@hotmail.com> wrote:
Well, apparently you haven't been getting any of my posts to the Al-Qaeda node, otherwise the context would be clear.
I'm not even going to bother with you anymore. Your motivation is quite clear enough, and any further bad-faith back-and-forth on your part would be superfluous to the task of proving that you won't be serious when you reply to my messages. Regards, Steve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
That's an old pattern to character assassins: "I've attacked you publically but I really don't want to have defend what I've said or reply to suggestions about my own motivation." Great. Fuck you too. Hope the new Stazi grab you while you bitch and complain and do nothing. -TD
From: Steve Thompson <steve49152@yahoo.ca> To: Tyler Durden <camera_lumina@hotmail.com>, cypherpunks@jfet.org Subject: Re: Well, they got what they want... Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:32:57 -0400 (EDT)
--- Tyler Durden <camera_lumina@hotmail.com> wrote:
Well, apparently you haven't been getting any of my posts to the Al-Qaeda node, otherwise the context would be clear.
I'm not even going to bother with you anymore. Your motivation is quite clear enough, and any further bad-faith back-and-forth on your part would be superfluous to the task of proving that you won't be serious when you reply to my messages.
Regards,
Steve
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
--- Tyler Durden <camera_lumina@hotmail.com> wrote:
That's an old pattern to character assassins: "I've attacked you publically but I really don't want to have defend what I've said or reply to suggestions about my own motivation."
And psychopaths are sometimes said to accuse their victims of the malice and violence the psychopaths perpetrate.
Great. Fuck you too. Hope the new Stazi grab you while you bitch and complain and do nothing.
Likewise, although I rather suspect you would be one of very 'Stazi' you pretend you hate. But there is an up-side: you're too fucking stupid to be of permanent use to the 'Stazi', and so you can anticpate outliving your usefulness eventually. Regards, Steve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, Steve Thompson wrote:
--- Tyler Durden <camera_lumina@hotmail.com> wrote:
That's an old pattern to character assassins: "I've attacked you publically but I really don't want to have defend what I've said or reply to suggestions about my own motivation."
And psychopaths are sometimes said to accuse their victims of the malice and violence the psychopaths perpetrate.
Great. Fuck you too. Hope the new Stazi grab you while you bitch and complain and do nothing.
Likewise, although I rather suspect you would be one of very 'Stazi' you pretend you hate. But there is an up-side: you're too fucking stupid to be of permanent use to the 'Stazi', and so you can anticpate outliving your usefulness eventually.
Why don't you two get a room? I'll even subsidize it. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org 0xBD4A95BF I like the idea of belief in drug-prohibition as a religion in that it is a strongly held belief based on grossly insufficient evidence and bolstered by faith born of intuitions flowing from the very beliefs they are intended to support. don zweig, M.D.
--- "J.A. Terranson" <measl@mfn.org> wrote:
On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, Steve Thompson wrote:
--- Tyler Durden <camera_lumina@hotmail.com> wrote: pretend you hate. But there is an up-side: you're too fucking stupid to be of permanent use to the 'Stazi', and so you can anticpate outliving your usefulness eventually.
Why don't you two get a room? I'll even subsidize it.
Beg me. Regards, Steve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
At 06:17 PM 7/23/2005, Tyler Durden wrote:
Saw a local security expert on the news, and he stated the obvious: Random searches and whatnot are going to do zero for someone determined, but "might" deter someone who was "thinking about" blowing up the A train. In other words, everyone here in NYC knows that we've given up a lot for the sake of the appearence of security, but no one seems to give a damn.
The term 'securisimilitude' (from verisimilitude) comes to mind. Steve
Steve Schear wrote:
The term 'securisimilitude' (from verisimilitude) comes to mind.
Steve
True, but I think the goal was FUD and it worked. On Tuesday (I think) both the Metro and AMNY free rags reported that all of a sudden there was a rash of suspicious packages being reported. Ya think? Another incident was of a homeless guy putting his luggage on a ticket counter and claiming it had a bomb in it. Think someone yanked his chain to the point where he'd sarcasm himself into jail? Of course the bright bulbs in charge evacuated all of Penn Station supposedly. In another article, one that stated NYCLU was against the searches, but claimed most people were happy to open their bags and some even walked up to the cops, opened their bags and said "here, look at mine", another gave a quote from a supposed police officer saying that July had a ~23% drop in crime. Well, that's nice and all, but the bag searches started only 3 days before, so WTF does the crime rate for July (which hasn't yet ended) have anything to do with bag searches that just started? The funniest part are the letters to the editors thanking the police and saying how wonderful it is to be living in a country where you're safe. Of course, if you were to tell these folks 10 years ago, that you'll be subject to search when entering the subway, or that you couldn't bring a nail clipper with you when boarding an airplane, they'd go "Shucks, no way that would happen in my country!" I love the smell of propaganda in the morning. It smells like FUD.
participants (7)
-
Duncan Frissell -
Gil Hamilton -
J.A. Terranson -
Steve Schear -
Steve Thompson -
sunder -
Tyler Durden