So what's the deal with smallpox anyway? When I was a kid we all got innoculated against it, and it was supposed to be a lifetime thing. In fact, my wife, whose a RN, had to get it again some years ago for work, but it didn't take, proving that the antibodies were still active. Did they stop vaccinating everyone for smallpox at some point? -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver@cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
On Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 08:17 PM, Harmon Seaver wrote:
So what's the deal with smallpox anyway? When I was a kid we all got innoculated against it, and it was supposed to be a lifetime thing. In fact, my wife, whose a RN, had to get it again some years ago for work, but it didn't take, proving that the antibodies were still active. Did they stop vaccinating everyone for smallpox at some point?
The Web is a better place to get info than asking us to write our versions of encyclopedia articles. However, some basic points: 1) Schoolchildren innoculations basically stopped in 1972, a combination of smallpox being eradicated and the accidental death rate (some fraction innoculated die). 2) Innoculations/vaccinations are _not_ lifetime...they tend to wear off in about 30 years. (The 1972-2001 time period is just a coincidence.) 3) Smallpox was officially declared "extinct" (eradicated) in around 1985. There had been no new cases seen by WHO in several years prior to this. 4) However, it was _not_ extinct. The U.S. kept cultures of it, and the Soviets had an extensive program to develop "militarized smallpox": more virulent and better-suited for distribution from artillery shells. 5) The Soviet facility, Biopreparat, developed several new strains of smallpox. Ken Alibek, now in the U.S., led the team. His book "Biohazard" provides the details. 6) It is unknown how many of these flasks of smallpox were smuggled out, or sold by the lab directors. Now do you understand the "deal"? --Tim May
5) The Soviet facility, Biopreparat, developed several new strains of smallpox. Ken Alibek, now in the U.S., led the team. His book "Biohazard" provides the details.
6) It is unknown how many of these flasks of smallpox were smuggled out, or sold by the lab directors.
Now do you understand the "deal"?
--Tim May.
MOSCOW WANTS TO KEEP CHEMICAL WEAPONS FROM FALLING INTO TERRORIST HANDS..... prepared to discuss the acceleration of the destruction of chemical and other weapons of mass destruction in order to keep them out of the hands of terrorists....
Moscow WMD deals.
I think it's tomorrow, right, that the Chinese counter-terrorist people are coming?
MR. BOUCHER: Yes.
Chinese can openers. Some things never change. ~Aimee
1) Schoolchildren innoculations basically stopped in 1972, a combination of smallpox being eradicated and the accidental death rate (some fraction innoculated die).
No smallpox vaccine is currently commercially available today. You can't buy the stuff. There are small stockpiles of the vaccine in case this "extinct" virus comes back someday, but it's hard to imagine that they could be administered in time to do any good. If it were possible to buy the stuff, I would get vaccinated right now, but someone doesn't want us to be able to get it. You might say that it's because of liability laws, but this isn't true, because you can't buy it in any country, even countries without liability laws or functioning civil court systems. The lie they say for denying the vaccine is that because the virus is extinct, there is no risk of infection, and there is a risk of dying from the vaccine, so it is too unsafe to use. This is disgusting because everyone knows that it is a lie; the virus is nowhere near extinct, and probably exists in dozens of labs around the world, and there is a very real danger of becoming infected with smallpox, but because no one has used it as a bioweapon in this century, the probability of it cannot be measured, but it is almost certain that the risk of being infected is currently higher than the risk of dying from the vaccine.
2) Innoculations/vaccinations are _not_ lifetime...they tend to wear off in about 30 years. (The 1972-2001 time period is just a coincidence.)
However, someone who was vaccinated, even decades ago, probably has some more residual resistance than those who never recieved it. Maybe.
4) However, it was _not_ extinct. The U.S. kept cultures of it, and the Soviets had an extensive program to develop "militarized smallpox": more virulent and better-suited for distribution from artillery shells.
It is most definitely not extinct. One of the stupidist most hypocritical scientific things I have ever seen was some stupid ceremony where the "last vials of smallpox" held in both the US and Russia were simultaneously destroyed a few years ago. Not one single thoughtful person could possibly believe that that was the last trace of smallpox, and yet they had a bunch of scientists saying how wonderful it was. They knew with absolute certainty that this wasn't true, because how on earth could you believe that the CIA/KGB/Mossad/ISI/etc haven't all kept little samples? Anyway, even if every lab destroyed its samples, it still doesn't make it extinct. It is almost certain that some virus would survive in old grave sites, etc. As I said, there are vaccines in a stockpile, but not remotely enough for the entire US population, and they are not available anyway. Someone made the conscious decision that the US population should be made vulnerable to this virus. One interesting point is that you could make your own vaccine in various ways. One is to infect yourself with cowpox, a related disease which is not harmful to humans, but which confers immunity. The other is to prepare the vaccine by taking samples from an infected person and inactivating them in various ways. Smallpox was the first vaccine to be developed, and it was done long before modern biology existed, so it's the easiest one to make.
"Dr. Evil" wrote:
One interesting point is that you could make your own [smallpox] vaccine in various ways. One is to infect yourself with cowpox, a related disease which is not harmful to humans, but which confers immunity...
Sounds like a market opportunity for some enterprising Cypherpunk. So Doctor, where do I get cowpox? S a n d y
Doh!
-----Original Message----- From: owner-cypherpunks@lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks@lne.com]On Behalf Of georgemw@speakeasy.net Sent: 26 September, 2001 12:53 To: cypherpunks@lne.com Subject: RE: Smallpox?
On 26 Sep 2001, at 9:09, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
Sounds like a market opportunity for some enterprising Cypherpunk. So Doctor, where do I get cowpox?
S a n d y
Obviously, from a cow!
George
Sounds like a market opportunity for some enterprising Cypherpunk. So Doctor, where do I get cowpox?
From cows, of course! Edward Jenner, in the late 1700s, noticed that milkmaids tended to have resistance to smallpox, so he took some cowpox pus from a milkmaid named Sarah Nelmes, and injected it into a boy, who then became immune to smallpox. You would have to do some research into cowpox to see what is the best way to do this, and where you might find infected cattle. Modern cattle raising is probably a lot more disease-free than it used to be, but maybe you could find samples in less developed countries. I would imagine you could buy some cowpox cultures from various bio research supply companies, but that would probably attract a lot of attention these days.
Even earlier, Chinese doctors found that they could achieve resistance by snorting dried pus from smallpox victims. Drying it must have been enough to inactivate the virus. There is so much literature (going back hundreds of years) on smallpox that it should be pretty easy to come up with a safe, reliable recipe. The problem now is that you will attract a _lot_ of attention trying to buy the ingredients, so you may need to be sneaky about it. Even buying plain old lab glassware requires a permit these days (thank you War on Drugs!). It does sound like a good biz opportunity, but you would have to do it all in a country without liability laws or an FDA. It might be hard to find a qualified biologist willing to do the work, and it would be hard to find a host country for this, because they would be accused of sponsoring biowarfare research.
David Honig wrote optimistically:
Zero unemployment, rents drop in cities, and smooth skin becomes even more desirable.
Not if New York City leaders get their way: high rents, pestilence, repulsive jobs, diseased bodies, will continue as intended for the Apple like other great cities of the world, with increased lies about their magnificence. Which they are for a few world class bloodsuckers who visit the scenes of their poisonous crimes now and then, bedhop ghouls at $30M pied a terres, spread their pox among the financial, legal and house help. Few of the titans rushing to rebuild New York live there full time, wise ones they are to remain missing.
On Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 11:43 AM, John Young wrote:
David Honig wrote optimistically:
Zero unemployment, rents drop in cities, and smooth skin becomes even more desirable.
Not if New York City leaders get their way: high rents, pestilence, repulsive jobs, diseased bodies, will continue as intended for the Apple like other great cities of the world, with increased lies about their magnificence. Which they are for a few world class bloodsuckers who visit the scenes of their poisonous crimes now and then, bedhop ghouls at $30M pied a terres, spread their pox among the financial, legal and house help. Few of the titans rushing to rebuild New York live there full time, wise ones they are to remain missing.
As I write, this instant, I can see Monterey across the patch of the bay that lies between my house and that peninsula. Crystal clear blue skies and a mild temperature. The glorious Santa Lucia Mountains, rising up from Big Sur. At night, the lights of the Monterey Bay Aquarium twinkling in the distance, the lights of the squid boats in the Bay. In the other directions, bucolic hillsides with scattered homes, farms, apple orchards, and a few vineyards. Three hundred feet below me, a country road winding its way into the redwoods. Upwind of me, where the bad stuff would blow in from, open space, forests, and then the Pacific Ocean. 80% of the time the winds are from this direction. If I need to visit a more densepacked area, I have Monterey and Salinas to the south, Santa Cruz about 15 miles away, and San Jose/Palo Alto/Mountain View/Silicon Valley over a ridge, about 40 miles away. For a trip into Gomorrah, San Francisco is 80 miles north, either up the beautiful coast route or inland via Silicon Valley. I can't see why the alleged advantages of NYC ("You can get felafel at 4 in the morning!") could ever justify living in such a antheap, such a deviation from what a hundred thousand years of evolution prepared us for. (I note that most of the CNBC reporters I see everyday talk about their commutes in from outlying areas, mostly in areas of New Jersey about 15-50 miles west of NYC. And no doubt many who work in NYC choose to live in Connecticutt, out on Long Island, etc. New York folks certainly know more about this than I do.) I wonder if these attacks, with more to come, will push more people into what social theorists have been talking about for decades, the flight from the city. In recent years, much has been made of the reverse flight, the gentrification of former ghetto areas in cities. This trend may reverse yet again. If, as many of us expect, one of the upcoming attacks is biological, expect more to flee to outlying areas. Cities are just such perfect soft targets. --Tim May
On Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 10:12:29AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
(I note that most of the CNBC reporters I see everyday talk about their commutes in from outlying areas, mostly in areas of New Jersey about 15-50 miles west of NYC. And no doubt many who work in NYC choose to live in Connecticutt, out on Long Island, etc. New York folks certainly know more about this than I do.)
I wonder if these attacks, with more to come, will push more people into what social theorists have been talking about for decades, the flight from the city. In recent years, much has been made of the reverse flight, the gentrification of former ghetto areas in cities. This trend may reverse yet again.
A relative of mine works in midtown Manhattan and lives in the city. He has a 20 minute subway commute each morning, which is what I had when I worked at Time and other jobs in downtown DC. Perfectly reasonable, by city standards. A friend emailed me this yesterday:
Guess what? There are massive police checkpoints >going into New York City today (maybe out of the city as >well?). People are reporting it's taking them 5 1/2 hours to get from >Queens to Westchester, etc. Traffic had re-normalized a >bit before this.
My relative added this:
Still quite evident this morning. Brooklyn Bridge, which was opened, is again closed to emergency traffic only. Sharp increase in police on underground from Brooklyn to Manhattan.
I spoke with a cpunk today on the phone, who told me that one of the two tunnels (Lincoln or Hudson, don't remember which) connecting Manhattan with the rest of the world to the west was still closed to all but emergency vehicles. That leaves one tunnel and the GW bridge to the west, with the Brooklyn bridge closed to the east. Couple that with serious car searches and the resulting delays, and you've got a very good reason to move far away. In DC, things aren't that bad. Road closings near the Pentagon (I-395) have snarled traffic in the area and led to Metro opening at 4:30 am to get people to work on time. But coming in and out of the city through other routes outside of rush hour, which I've done twice this week, is same as usual. -Declan
Well, these comments are going to sound sicko, but from where we live and work, about six miles north of the bomb site, it's as if WTC never happened. Had it not been for TV we wouldn't have known anything was amiss. We first heard about WTC from a relative in Florida who called. Now, TV and the condolences-and-rebuild-ads-fat NY Times is our source of police beat news. We have a project under construction downtown in the West Village close by one of the hospitals ready to receive victims. For a few days we had to skirt the hospital, but not now. There were hundreds of photos of the missing posted there, but not now, all erased. Looking down 7th Avenue there's a void where the Towers once loomed, but now a wisp of smoke. But the Towers are not really missed, if you don't buy the fabricated outcry, for they were always a bloated blur on the skyscape, now more monumental as debris and lurid media images than ever in real life. No doubt about it, WTC has impacted others more than most bunkered and isolated New Yorkers who give not a shit about their predatory neighbors, indeed fear and hate them along with the rest of humankind -- except as rubes to be hustled. Once I cared, then I learned it's best to fake it, and if you can fake it here you can fake it anywhere -- just keep those subsidies coming with the dirt cheap, expendable, immigrants, and those cash-bloated tourists and congresspersons now buying a view of The Heap of Heaps, NYC's godsent First Wonder of the World. You can bet NYC is set to capitalize on chem-bio showtime. Statue of Liberty, ha, ha, ha! Eat your heart out. I love NY.
Smallpox is officially "eradicated," per the UN. Not only are you not forced to get vaccinated - the vaccine is no longer available. This would be okay if there were no more reservoirs of the disease, but in fact the virus is preserved at several locations, and could be released either by accident or by design. Marc de Piolenc Iligan Harmon Seaver wrote:
So what's the deal with smallpox anyway? When I was a kid we all got innoculated against it, and it was supposed to be a lifetime thing. In fact, my wife, whose a RN, had to get it again some years ago for work, but it didn't take, proving that the antibodies were still active. Did they stop vaccinating everyone for smallpox at some point?
At 02:53 PM 09/26/2001 +0800, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:
Smallpox is officially "eradicated," per the UN. Not only are you not forced to get vaccinated - the vaccine is no longer available. This would be okay if there were no more reservoirs of the disease, but in fact the virus is preserved at several locations, and could be released either by accident or by design.
There are two large terrorist organizations that have smallpox supplies - the US* and Russian military biological warfare groups - and there are occasional rumors that other terrorists may also have them. Each of the big terrorist groups claims that they need to keep the stuff so that they can prepare vaccines in case the other side uses their stash for CBW, and that they can't do a mutual disarmament because they can't trust each other not to keep some hidden stash - plus the possibility that some other terrorist group may have some, or that there may be some in the wild that could reappear some day and we'd then be defenseless. This is especially bogus for smallpox, because (as Jenner discovered), cowpox is usable as a vaccine against smallpox, so keeping that should be good enough, though the smallpox-based vaccines are more convenient. There's a certain amount of counter-argument that says that the other terrorists might have done some genetic engineering to create a mutant smallpox that isn't bothered by cowpox immunity, and therefore they need to keep the Genuine Bad Stuff around. [*Technically the US probably uses the Center for Disease Control to run the repository, but it's the basically the military's control here.]
Bill Stewart wrote:
This is especially bogus for smallpox, because (as Jenner discovered), cowpox is usable as a vaccine against smallpox, so keeping that should be good enough, though the smallpox-based vaccines are more convenient.
I would not count on the 18th century cowpox/smallpox coupling to be valid today - viruses evolve, and that's not counting deliberate manipulations intended to produce more virulent strains. Bottom line is: so long as anybody has this stuff in stock it is criminal not to make the vaccine available, and I applaud efforts to obtain some level of immunity. There is of course a risk of adverse reactions from vaccinations, but as I understand it nobody who has been vaccinated without trouble in the past should expect any from future boosters or revaccination - the only risk is in initial vaccination, so we oldtimers who traveled before the WHO declaration of victory have nothing to lose by revaccination. Each of us has the right to weigh for himself the risk of being vaccinated versus the risk of being accidentally or deliberately infected with the allegedly eradicated disease. Best to all, Marc de Piolenc PS. The biotech lists are full of stuff that might lead to the capability of producing effective vaccines without having stocks of the virus - something about cell-membrane proteins. Unfortunately my background is not adequate for understanding this material; perhaps somebody else on the list has the right PhD?
I would not count on the 18th century cowpox/smallpox coupling to be valid today - viruses evolve, and that's not counting deliberate manipulations intended to produce more virulent strains.
I was thinking about this some more, and I wonder if cowpox still exists in the wild. I know that all livestock in developed countries receive certain vaccinations, and it would be logical for cowpox/smallpox to be one of them. Hmm, this also makes me wonder: if there is veterinary vaccine for *pox, could it be safe and effective for humans, or easily adapted for human use? Trivia buffs: The word vaccine comes from the Latin word vacca, meaning cow (vache in French).
Bottom line is: so long as anybody has this stuff in stock it is criminal not to make the vaccine available, and I applaud efforts to
Um, I must correct you: Someone has it in stock, and it would be a criminal offense (in the US) to make it available, I would imagine.
obtain some level of immunity. There is of course a risk of adverse reactions from vaccinations, but as I understand it nobody who has been vaccinated without trouble in the past should expect any from future boosters or revaccination - the only risk is in initial vaccination, so we oldtimers who traveled before the WHO declaration of victory have nothing to lose by revaccination.
That may or may not be correct. If you could vaccinate an old-timer with exactly the same preparation as was used before it would be safe, but there is a risk that any preparation could be contaminated with something, so there is always some risk. It could be very small though. The original vaccine was quite safe, and has been studied exhaustively. They have been vaccinating for smallpox since the 1800s. Here is a woodblock print from Japan from circa 1850 advertising the smallpox vaccine: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol6no6/cover.htm.
Each of us has the right to weigh for himself the risk of being vaccinated versus the risk of being accidentally or deliberately infected with the allegedly eradicated disease.
Sorry to have to shatter your world, Marc, but, in the US, you have absolutely no right to weigh those risks for yourself. The government will make all those types of decisions for you. What, did you think you know what's best for yourself? That's un-American. I bet you also think that you are responsible for your own safety in general?
PS. The biotech lists are full of stuff that might lead to the capability of producing effective vaccines without having stocks of the virus - something about cell-membrane proteins. Unfortunately my background is not adequate for understanding this material; perhaps somebody else on the list has the right PhD?
You could definitely make a protein vaccine for smallpox that wouldn't involve any of the virus itself. However... that is quite a project. It would be much easier to use some non-human pox (cowpox, monkeypox, whatever), or even use inactivated human pox. Your neighbor gets the pox, you collect some of the pus, and inactivate it, perhaps just by drying it out or heating it a little, and you have an instant vaccine. The reason why smallpox is the first and only virus ever erradicated from the wild is because the vaccine is quite easy. I hope someone takes up this project in some non-US country, but I doubt anyone will. I know it would sell well to Americans right now if someone did.
On Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 11:29 PM, Dr. Evil wrote:
I would not count on the 18th century cowpox/smallpox coupling to be valid today - viruses evolve, and that's not counting deliberate manipulations intended to produce more virulent strains.
I was thinking about this some more, and I wonder if cowpox still exists in the wild. I know that all livestock in developed countries receive certain vaccinations, and it would be logical for cowpox/smallpox to be one of them. Hmm, this also makes me wonder: if there is veterinary vaccine for *pox, could it be safe and effective for humans, or easily adapted for human use? Trivia buffs: The word vaccine comes from the Latin word vacca, meaning cow (vache in French).
Better hurry! The criminals in Washington are about to make mere _possession_ of biologicals like this illegal. Heretofore, it was illegal to possess biologicals intended for weapons use, but soon it will be a felony to merely possess broad classes of biologicals. (Of course, the lab I worked in had Hepatitus C being cultured. All it takes is a permission slip from Big Bro and your lab can militarize smallpox!) --Tim May, hurriedly dumping his biologicals in the nearby streams to get rid of them
Fragile readers, stop here! Only those tough enough to cope with grim biological realities need read on...
Better hurry! The criminals in Washington are about to make mere _possession_ of biologicals like this illegal. Heretofore, it was illegal to possess biologicals intended for weapons use, but soon it will be a felony to merely possess broad classes of biologicals.
That's looney! That's about as stupid as banning nail clippers in carry-ons. Oh wait... This reminds me of a US elementary school that, in its effort to show how zero-tolerance it is, banned "injesting any chemical substance". I would love to have gotten a video tape of the principal drinking a glass of water, and then get him expelled from school... I mean, really, what is a "biological"? Every day I excrete several pounds of wonderful biological stuff, including many harmful disease-causing bacteria. If I accidentally crap on a dish full of nutrients, have I created a "biological"? Do I need a permit to operate a compost heap or a "bio-toilet"?
--Tim May, hurriedly dumping his biologicals in the nearby streams to get rid of them
I'm about to dump some biologicals into our sewer system. Oh wait, this list is monitored by the Feds, I should clarify that statement: I am about to excrete some human waste into the toilet, which I will then flush.
At 06:29 AM 9/27/01 -0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
Each of us has the right to weigh for himself the risk of being vaccinated versus the risk of being accidentally or deliberately infected with the allegedly eradicated disease.
Sorry to have to shatter your world, Marc, but, in the US, you have absolutely no right to weigh those risks for yourself. The government will make all those types of decisions for you. What, did you think you know what's best for yourself? That's un-American. I bet you also think that you are responsible for your own safety in general?
Actually, you wave the "religion" flag and you get out, in the US. This is explicit in e.g., childhood immunization 'laws'.
-- On 27 Sep 2001, at 6:29, Dr. Evil wrote:
I was thinking about this some more, and I wonder if cowpox still exists in the wild. I know that all livestock in developed countries receive certain vaccinations, and it would be logical for cowpox/smallpox to be one of them. Hmm, this also makes me wonder: if there is veterinary vaccine for *pox, could it be safe and effective for humans, or easily adapted for human use? Trivia buffs: The word vaccine comes from the Latin word vacca, meaning cow (vache in French).
The original vaccine was based on cowpox, the nearest relative of small pox. However it was insufficiently effective and reliable, and so was furtively replaced by a weakened strain of smallpox, which was grown on cows. The sellers of the vaccine continued to represent it as cowpox, but it was in fact a mild variant of the real thing, smallpox. One reason for ending routine smallpox vaccinations was fear that the vaccine might re-evolve virulence. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG kXH6aRJgcm74NYwHq6YHdgl8mhU4ortJYmss1BEZ 4enHGKKT46sx5PJiNR4+3w/9tMGBllosKm+Gur1im
"Dr. Evil" wrote:
I would not count on the 18th century cowpox/smallpox coupling to be valid today - viruses evolve, and that's not counting deliberate manipulations intended to produce more virulent strains.
I was thinking about this some more, and I wonder if cowpox still exists in the wild. I know that all livestock in developed countries receive certain vaccinations, and it would be logical for cowpox/smallpox to be one of them.
That's not true -- where the heck did you ever get the idea that "all livestock in developed countries receive certain vaccinations"??? I had livestock for years and never vaccinated them for anything, and I've know a lot of farmers who didn't either. We used to run a dog team, sometimes had 14-15 dogs which didn't even get rabies shots. Besides all the non-vaccinated domestic livestock, what about all the wild animals that could carry cowpox. Even cats and rats can carry it. http://www.stanford.edu/~jaguayo/cowpox_virus.html -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver@cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
"Dr. Evil" wrote:
Each of us has the right to weigh for himself the risk of being vaccinated versus the risk of being accidentally or deliberately infected with the allegedly eradicated disease.
Sorry to have to shatter your world, Marc, but in the US, you have absolutely no right to weigh those risks for yourself.
We're saying the same thing with different terminology. In my vocabulary, rights are inherent, whether you have a chance to exercise them or not. I am well aware of the dangers of exercising certain rights in the USA.
I bet you also think that you are responsible for your own safety in general?
Well, now that you mention it... Marc
At 10:17 PM 9/25/01 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
So what's the deal with smallpox anyway? When I was a kid we all got innoculated against it, and it was supposed to be a lifetime thing.
Not sure about that, but:
Did they stop vaccinating everyone for smallpox at some point?
Yes.
participants (12)
-
Aimee Farr -
Bill Stewart -
David Honig -
Declan McCullagh -
Dr. Evil -
F. Marc de Piolenc -
georgemw＠speakeasy.net -
Harmon Seaver -
jamesd＠echeque.com -
John Young -
Sandy Sandfort -
Tim May