At 5:54 PM -0400 7/24/01, Faustine wrote:

Tim wrote:

...

Likewise, I know of even some Cypherpunks who have left their employers for ideological reasons. And if some have _left_ jobs, the effects are likely greater on the _recruiting_ side (where the costs of a decision are much less).

Absolutely. More than that, I try to never take a job unless I'd be willing to do it for free. All free-market principles aside, if you're just in it for the paycheck, what's the point? I'd rather do something I love that's meaningful to me than just make a pile. Even better not to have to choose at all. (Not there yet, so #1 it is...)

I liked, even greatly liked, some aspects of my job in the 70s and 80s, but there is no way I would have done it for "free." I was getting up at the crack of dawn, arriving by 8 or earlier every morning, working more or less continuously until 6 each night, often working on Saturdays, sometimes working on Sundays, to do what my bosses told me needed doing. While I could often innovate, the broad outlines of my "interests" were set by management. I believe this is mostly the case in 99% of all work environments, even ones "loved" by the workers. Very few jobs are of the form "Do what turns you on." What most people think of as "loving" the job is really just the result of adapting their own goals to that of the organization. It works for dogs, who also "love" their jobs, so why not for humans? And working "for free," when the employer is deriving value (presumably), is a losing proposition for multiple reasons.

This won't be too interesting to all the venerable greybeards out there, but you'd be surprised what kind of work you can end up with by taking an unpaid volunteer internship first. If there aren't any available, find someone to talk to, create a work plan and propose one yourself.

Only a nitwit works for free.

If you can scrape by, trading your free labor for experience isn't always a bad bargain...it's worked for me more than once, and I sometimes I eventually ended up on the payroll.

News flash: some of us were on the payroll from Day One. I have never worked a minute of "free labor," not counting helping friends move their stuff, and not counting the thousands, nay, tens of thousands, of hours I have spend on lists like this one.

Has anyone ever been in the position of turning down work because you didn't want to apply for clearance? I seem to remember some people here saying they already have it, was it a hard decision for you? I don't really have a problem with the idea of facing a background check (though I don't imagine anyone looks forward to it), it's the pre-publication review board requirement that bothers me.

If I had little history, I'd have no problem applying for a "clearance." Even now, if they wanted me to apply to apply for a clearance, I'd say "Yeah, right, whatever. Hand me the forms!" and then let the surprise be theirs. Would I let them in my house to look around? Of course not. Could they ask questions of my neighbors? Whatever, as I have no control over my neighbors (except to tell them absolutely nothing about my life). Could they check my Internet past? Presumably. Which is why I'd laugh if they said they wanted me to get a security clearance. (I've been in meetings on topics I _discovered_ where I was excluded from part of the meeting. In Washington in 1979, for example, where I outlined to DARPA, NRL, CIA, and NRO a system for knocking out satellites with particle beam weapons. I gave the kickoff talk, outlined the set of calculations, but was excluded from the afternoon classified sessions. No skin off my nose.) --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay@got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns

At 5:54 PM -0400 7/24/01, Faustine wrote:

Has anyone ever been in the position of turning down work because you didn't want to apply for clearance? I seem to remember some people here

Not so much turning it down as making it clear ahead of time that I would.

saying they already have it, was it a hard decision for you? I don't really have a problem with the idea of facing a background check (though I don't imagine anyone looks forward to it), it's the pre-publication review board requirement that bothers me.

I won't take a Piss Test for a job. Not for fear of failing, but because I believe it's none of their business what's in there. I hesitate strongly to take jobs that require clearances for much the same reason.