CDR: Re: Insurance (was: why should it be trusted?) cpunk
Anonymous wrote:
I believe that the standard argument is "Eliminate the commons." (by auctioning off to the highest bidder perhaps)
So who gets the bid on the environment ? There are some commons that can not be eliminated so easily.
Generally, this would be water and air. If someone pollutes the air over their land, that's ok. As soon as the pollution crosses into your land, you sue for damages. People are concerned about the long term value of their property, so they will have a disincentive to pollute.
[...] While by default I hold libertarian positions, doing so sometimes requires uncomfortable contortions. Who, for example, should the inhabitants of Tuvalu sue for rising sea levels? Neighbouring territories for failing to prevent excess seawater from crossing their mid-ocean border? Arctic nations for sloppy handling of the runoff from their melting icecaps? The rest of the human race for burning too much stuff? Me for driving a Suburban? Sometimes ownership is so distant and diluted that individual responsibility is impossible to establish, yet the problems are real, and significant. [This is just an example, ok? Lets NOT fork into a debate over the reality (or lack thereof) of global warming.] Peter Trei
At 10:11 AM -0400 10/19/00, Trei, Peter wrote:
While by default I hold libertarian positions, doing so sometimes requires uncomfortable contortions.
Who, for example, should the inhabitants of Tuvalu sue for rising sea levels? Neighbouring territories for failing to prevent excess seawater from crossing their mid-ocean border? Arctic nations for sloppy handling of the runoff from their melting icecaps? The rest of the human race for burning too much stuff? Me for driving a Suburban?
Sometimes ownership is so distant and diluted that individual responsibility is impossible to establish, yet the problems are real, and significant.
[This is just an example, ok? Lets NOT fork into a debate over the reality (or lack thereof) of global warming.]
No problem. However, it illustrates another point that I wish to refute. --> Every time that something happens, someone is to blame. Who is to blame for hurricanes? Haiti, for not stopping them before they reach Florida? Who is to blame for a bee flying into your mouth while you are driving? (which, if you've never had it happen, leads quickly to a car crash) -- -- Marshall "The era of big government is over." Bill Clinton, State of the Union Address, January 23, 1996 Marshall Clow MusicMatch <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>
Who is to blame for hurricanes?
"God", but so far he seems rather judgement proof.
Haiti, for not stopping them before they reach Florida?
Who is to blame for a bee flying into your mouth while you are driving? (which, if you've never had it happen, leads quickly to a car crash)
If you are driving with your head out the window, you are. And yes, I know someone who had something similar happen (wasn't a bee), and he all but crashed. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural
----- Original Message ----- From: Trei, Peter <ptrei@rsasecurity.com>
While by default I hold libertarian positions, doing so sometimes requires uncomfortable contortions.
Who, for example, should the inhabitants of Tuvalu sue for rising sea levels?
Maybe that problem is solved elsewhere. To the extent that rising CO2 levels lead to that problem, that could be solved by getting rid of the politicians who pass anti-hemp (burning hemp products merely re-cycles CO2 that was taken out of the atmosphere weeks/months ago, not millions of years ago) laws and the cops (term used generically) who enforce them. Naturally, with a functioning AP system, of course! And if you've been following science issues over the last few years, it is now shown that dumping iron ions (at nanomolar levels) in the south Pacific ocean greatly assists the growing of biota which sequester CO2 from the atmosphere. Sure, as easy as this may end up being, that's going to require SOME effort and thus some cost, but perhaps it's a cost that would be happily borne by the fossil-fuel users (being a tiny fraction of the cost of the fuel itself) if they want to avoid some of their number being occasionally and randomly bumped off by some Tuvalu-financed (Not to mention Venice!) death-squads. I think you'll find that what may start out by looking like "uncomfortable contortions" look less and less uncomfortable as we abandon unstated assumptions and dearly (or even subconsciously) held beliefs.
[This is just an example, ok? Lets NOT fork into a debate over the reality (or lack thereof) of global warming.]
jim bell wrote:
And if you've been following science issues over the last few years, it is now shown that dumping iron ions (at nanomolar levels) in the south Pacific ocean greatly assists the growing of biota which sequester CO2 from the atmosphere. Sure, as easy as this may end up being, that's going to require
There is a book that this is written in about called "Deep Time" which is a damned good read IMHO. (It's about how to make things last for millenia.) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0380975378/qid=972503490/sr=1-3/102-7... The best quote from the guy that thought up the idea of feeding plankton FeO2 was "Give me a frigate full of rust, and I'll give you your next ice age." (from wetware RAM, #include <stdwarn.h>) The current issue of Wired wrote up on this also. -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_@_sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------
----- Original Message ----- From: sunder <sunder@sunder.net>
There is a book that this is written in about called "Deep Time" which is a damned good read IMHO. (It's about how to make things last for millenia.)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0380975378/qid=972503490/sr=1-3/102-7 742712-2792108
The best quote from the guy that thought up the idea of feeding plankton FeO2 was "Give me a frigate full of rust, and I'll give you your next ice age." (from wetware RAM, #include <stdwarn.h>)
My back-of-the-computerized-envelope calculation shows that it would take 5900 metric tons (2200 lbs) to load a volume of 100km by 100km by 100 meters of water with 100 nanomolar level of iron ion. (weight counts only that of iron, not the anion.) Big supertankers hold approximately 400,000 tons of oil, which happens to be much less dense than iron oxide. I haven't read much on the results of the experiment done, but my impression is that this kind of iron fertilizing is very much worth doing. Jim Bell
At 05:49 PM 10/25/00 -0400, jim bell wrote:
My back-of-the-computerized-envelope calculation shows that it would take 5900 metric tons (2200 lbs) to load a volume of 100km by 100km by 100 meters of water with 100 nanomolar level of iron ion. (weight counts only that of iron, not the anion.) Big supertankers hold approximately 400,000 tons of oil, which happens to be much less dense than iron oxide.
I haven't read much on the results of the experiment done, but my impression is that this kind of iron fertilizing is very much worth doing.
Jim Bell
The performance-art potential for drawing with plankton blooms in the ocean (for imaging by satellites) boggles. Anyone have Christo's number?
participants (6)
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David Honig -
jim bell -
Marshall Clow -
petro -
sunder -
Trei, Peter