CDR: Re: Ralph Nader sends privacy survey to Bush and Gore campaigns
Meanwhile, the Bush and Gore campaigns are doing their own discussion on privacy policies, led by Markey, who thinks that the Feds have a right to control what goes on Cable TV because lots of people watch Public Television on cable, (Goldsmith I don't know... Robbin, do you know him?) and moderated by Etzioni, who doesn't believe your right to privacy includes keeping the Feds from eavesdropping, and invented "Fair Cryptography" to make it easier for them. I seem to remember Etzioni being tied into the Communitarian movement as well. Much as I think the Naderites are wrong in their idea that more government control can improve privacy, this seems like a setup for a debate on "Privacy - Threat or Menace"....
ADVISORY GORE/BUSH FORUM ON PRIVACY TO BE HELD OCTOBER 16 10:30 AM, THE MONARCH HOTEL, WASHINGTON, DC
Congressman Edward Markey (D-MA) will present the Gore campaign's views on privacy; Bush's senior domestic policy advisor and former mayor of Indianapolis, Stephen Goldsmith, will present the views of the Bush campaign.
Amitai Etzioni, author of The Limits of Privacy will moderate.
Open to the public and to the press: feel free to invite your students or colleagues. A Q&A will follow the presentations.
Sponsored by the Institute for Communitarian Policy Studies at The George Washington University.
For more information, contact: Joanna Cohn Outreach Coordinator 202.994.8190 comnet@gwu.edu
At 03:19 PM 10/9/00 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/10/09/1933206&mode=nested
Nader Sends Privacy Quiz to Bush and Gore posted by cicero on Monday October 09, @02:22PM from the never-liked-those-safeway-discount-cards-anyway dept.
Vergil Bushnell of Ralph Nader's presidential campaign just sent us news about a privacy survey. Turns out the Green Party hopeful wants to nail down where rivals George W. Bush and Al Gore stand on things like supermarket videocameras and marketing by Internet service providers. Unfortunately, Ralph doesn't include any questions exclusively on the topic of government surveillance, such as wiretapping, Echelon, or Carnivore -- which are precisely the areas the next Oval Office occupant can do the most to reform. Nader is, typically, focused only on corporate wrongdoing. His privacy survey is is attached below.
The survey: http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/10/09/1933206&mode=nested
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At 23:38 10/9/2000 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
I seem to remember Etzioni being tied into the Communitarian movement as well.
Right. In fact, that's an understatement. He's essentially the anti-cypherpunk: Regulate corporations' data collection practices strictly, but don't regulate the governments' practices. -Declan
On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote:
At 23:38 10/9/2000 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
I seem to remember Etzioni being tied into the Communitarian movement as well.
Right. In fact, that's an understatement.
He's essentially the anti-cypherpunk: Regulate corporations' data collection practices strictly, but don't regulate the governments' practices.
-Declan
Could someone cogently explain the difference between communitarians and communists? I get the impression that communitarians were sort of a communist/fascist hybrid, but I'm sure someone has a more elegant explanation. jim -- "...his mind is not for rent, by any god or government." rush, tom sawyer
I think communism has too many negative connotations to be used nowadays... So communitarian is a new word for the old philosophy. Kinda like progressive as a replacement for statist or whatnot. -Declan At 12:20 10/10/2000 -0500, Jim Burnes wrote:
Could someone cogently explain the difference between communitarians and communists?
I get the impression that communitarians were sort of a communist/fascist hybrid, but I'm sure someone has a more elegant explanation.
On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote:
I think communism has too many negative connotations to be used nowadays... So communitarian is a new word for the old philosophy. Kinda like progressive as a replacement for statist or whatnot.
-Declan
At 12:20 10/10/2000 -0500, Jim Burnes wrote:
Could someone cogently explain the difference between communitarians and communists?
I get the impression that communitarians were sort of a communist/fascist hybrid, but I'm sure someone has a more elegant explanation.
Yeah. In the dim, dusty recesses of my memory I seem to recall the Communitarian zeal with something the NWO types are calling 'The Third Way'. A way of involving business and government together to create social change. Last time I checked thats called Fascism. But it has a fuzzy "community" flavor to it that smaks of the communist meme. A memetic psychologist would have a field day with it. "The iron hand in a velvet glove" jim -- Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural
At 12:35 10/10/2000 -0500, Jim Burnes wrote:
Yeah. In the dim, dusty recesses of my memory I seem to recall the Communitarian zeal with something the NWO types are calling 'The Third Way'. A way of involving business and government together to create social change. Last time I checked thats called Fascism.
You don't even have to go as far left as the communitarians to find that. Check out the DLC, which Clinton headed and Lieberman now chairs: http://www.ndol.org/ The "third way" is their motto: http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ka.cfm?kaid=128 -Declan
there's some discussion of etzoni here: http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/10/10/2031205&mode=nested Bush and Gore Campaigns Will Debate Privacy posted by cicero on Tuesday October 10, @03:22PM Representatives of the George W. Bush and Al Gore campaigns will debate privacy in Washington on October 16. Now, the candidates themselves aren't going to be there, but a privacy debate is still a first. A related one happened today at the Brookings Institution, when Sen. Robert Bennett (for Bush) and Robert Shapiro, Commerce Department undersecretary (for Gore) tangled over "technology and the global economy." There's one odd thing about the Bush-Gore privacy debate: It's being hosted by Amitai Etzioni of George Washington University, a "communitarian" who's deeply suspicious of proposals to limit government surveillance, and an unusual choice for a moderator. See below for details. Also see Gore and Bush and Ralph Nader on privacy.
At 1:22 PM -0400 10/10/00, Declan McCullagh wrote:
I think communism has too many negative connotations to be used nowadays... So communitarian is a new word for the old philosophy. Kinda like progressive as a replacement for statist or whatnot.
-Declan
Why give them a term which, at least to some, sounds noble? Communitarian, indeed! I favor the more descriptive term: simp-wimps. As for Nader and the Green Party, fuck 'em. There's nothing even remotely tolerable about them. The Green Party, for example, calls for a 100% income tax on all income above some level. I expect most of them need to be liquidated in the purge. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments.
At 1:22 PM -0400 10/10/00, Declan McCullagh wrote:
I think communism has too many negative connotations to be used nowadays... So communitarian is a new word for the old philosophy. Kinda like progressive as a replacement for statist or whatnot.
-Declan
Why give them a term which, at least to some, sounds noble?
Communitarian, indeed!
No one gave them the term, the adopted it for themselves.
I favor the more descriptive term: simp-wimps.
What is wrong with "Statist pricks"? -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural
On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote:
At 23:38 10/9/2000 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
I seem to remember Etzioni being tied into the Communitarian movement as well.
Right. In fact, that's an understatement.
He's essentially the anti-cypherpunk: Regulate corporations' data collection practices strictly, but don't regulate the governments' practices.
-Declan
Could someone cogently explain the difference between communitarians and communists?
Can anyone cogently explain the difference between the color violet and the color purple? (Or maybe one should say the color "rose" and "red").
I get the impression that communitarians were sort of a communist/fascist hybrid, but I'm sure someone has a more elegant explanation.
I get the same impression--They seem like National (as opposed to International) Socialists. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural
At 10:44 PM -0700 10/10/00, Ray Dillinger wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, petro wrote:
I get the same impression--They seem like National (as opposed to International) Socialists.
Ah. I see that, in accordance with ancient usenet and mailing-list tradition, the discussion is now over.
Bear
May's Corollary to Godwin's Law: At least 97% of all invocations of Godwin's Law are done so to squelch debate. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments.
On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote:
At 23:38 10/9/2000 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
I seem to remember Etzioni being tied into the Communitarian movement as well.
Right. In fact, that's an understatement.
He's essentially the anti-cypherpunk: Regulate corporations' data collection practices strictly, but don't regulate the governments' practices.
-Declan
Could someone cogently explain the difference between communitarians and communists? ... I get the impression that communitarians were sort of a communist/fascist hybrid, but I'm sure someone has a more elegant explanation.
The Commies could always recognize the FBI plants in their groups because they were the ones who paid their organization dues.... Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
participants (7)
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Bill Stewart -
Bill Stewart -
Declan McCullagh -
Jim Burnes -
petro -
Ray Dillinger -
Tim May