Well, now that the government's Pay Per View killing of Timothy McVeigh is less than a month away, the disinformation campaign seems to be ramping up in order to self-servingly spin his crime. Witness the following pious piece of crap making the Email route around the Net. Comments in [] are mine.
From OKC Fireman
I hope that Tuesday when Tim McVeighs Book hits the newsstands, that NO ONE WILL BUY THIS BOOK.
[Perhaps we should make "intentionally looking" at the book a crime.]
This man is being given too much publicity and shows NO REMORSE for the horrible crime that he committed.
[All the publicity I've seen is from anti-McVeigh folk unhappy that the Sheeple need additional nips at their heels to "Baaaaaaaaaaaaaa" convincingly and in unison. I keep thinking of bomber pilot who fired a two-thousand pound concrete and steel piercing munition into an air raid shelter full of civilians, including children, in Iraq. When's the last time you heard anything about his "REMORSE" on the tube?]
He has admitted he is guilty.
[Yes, Tim McVeigh, a veteran of the Persial Gulf War, which killed a hundred thousand people during the war, and a million and a half afterwards by wrecking the Iraqi economy, returned home to the US, and judged the US Government's behavior at Waco by the same standards he had been taught to use against the Iraqis. Hey, it's not our fault the government didn't deprogram their killer before returning him to civilian life, and he still had a conscience left. You better put some ice on that, Oklahoma.]
He refers to the precious 19 children he murdered as "collateral Damage" and his only regret is that "their deaths proved to be a public relations nightmare that undercut his cause" ...
OF ALL THE GALL!!!!
[Seems to be that "collateral damage" has always the government's favorite term for all the civilians that got blown up, napalmed, shot, and otherwise met a sticky end because we were targeting something nearby and they were in the way. I don't recall anyone saying "OF ALL THE GALL" when the Pentagon spokesperson joked about the unlucky civilians who just happened to be crossing the bridge when we blew it up. Of course, they doctored the video by running it faster to make it look like there was no time to make any other decision. Clever, these spokes-weasels. Perhaps the term "collateral damage" will now be retired because of its association with Tim McVeigh. Perhaps the government could hold a jingle-writing contest to coin a new term for humans in the way when America, the country that never apologizes, chooses to send a political message with bombs and tanks. Of course, if the 19 kids had been in an Iraqi government building, we would be referring to them by the politically correct terminology - "Human Shields."]
The Pictures of these children and the adults will always be in our minds...
[The advantage of being able to give the victims unlimited airtime to gripe over their loss. When's the last time you saw a 1-hour special of the Waco Victims' favorite family videos? No firemen holding dead babies for the cameras there. Hey, did we ever rebuild all those neighborhoods we flattened in Panama?]
168 innocent people died that day. This man murdered them ... please do not make him some sort of hero ..He wants part of the proceeds to go to the Oklahoma City Memorial ...
[How innocent are civilians, really? They pay their taxes. They buy the bombs. Sometimes, as happened recently in the Zionist Entity, they elect a mass-murdering war criminal as their leader in an overwhelming landslide. The notion of not attacking civilian populations is really a very recent invention. Convenient, at the present time, for the US to bray mightily over.]
the OKC MEMORIAL Declines the money......
Send the Money to the Memorial ......
but PLEASE DO NOT BUY THIS BOOK....!!!!!!
Thank you.... and remember the precious children. so innocent....
[Well, precious when it is convenient for their charred bodies to be featured in a photo opportunity, for political purposes. Sentient property for most other functions they are made to perform.]
Please pass this on to everyone you know, so this monster does not get any more publicity, that is all he wants is the publicity.
[Oh, I don't believe for an instant Tim McVeigh blew up the Murrah building because he wanted to become famous. It was a calculated political act, for which he expected to sacrifice his life, in order to create "consequences of significance" for the government, for its behavior at Waco, Ruby Ridge, and numerous other places. We may disagree with what he did, but let's not play propaganda games by trying to trivialize and belittle his actions, and portray them as some attempt at shameless self-promotion.]
Paul Hinchey, Captain Guymon Fire Dept. Guymon, OK
Thank-you, Paul. You may go and polish the fire truck now. George Orwell once characterized the future as a "boot stomping on a human face, forever." A better picture of the future might be a decorated Gulf War veteran, strapped to a board, needles injecting poison into his veins, while an enraptured audience of hundreds watches on TV, and the voice of Big Brother explains to them that this is what happens to people who confuse Truefacts with Goodfacts. There are few more dangerous lines that a government may cross, than to kill citizens for committing purely political acts, even when those acts result in massive loss of life. In an ideal world, McVeigh would be a soldier who malfunctioned, a person to be pitied. Of course, in an ideal world, the acts which drove McVeigh to act would never have been committed. Time will tell whether the McVeigh execution will appease the families of those his bomb killed and injured. Time will also tell if this closed-circuit demonstration of unstoppable government power against the individual will create another thousand Timothy McVeighs. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Cordian" <emc@artifact.psychedelic.net> To: <cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 1:18 AM Subject: Timothy McVeigh
I keep thinking of bomber pilot who fired a two-thousand pound concrete and steel piercing munition into an air raid shelter full of civilians, including children, in Iraq. When's the last time you heard anything about his "REMORSE" on the tube?]
Hmmm lets see, if I remember right that actually was not an air raid shelter it was a military hold which the people of the community were told was "safe" to hide in... Or am I just to believe that is our own government propaganda?
He has admitted he is guilty.
[Yes, Tim McVeigh, a veteran of the Persial Gulf War, which killed a hundred thousand people during the war, and a million and a half afterwards by wrecking the Iraqi economy, returned home to the US, and judged the US Government's behavior at Waco by the same standards he had been taught to use against the Iraqis.
Hmm I guess all the Kuwaiti's that the Iraqi's killed brings nothing into this equation of yours? Including the removal of Kuwati babies from their incubators so the iraqis could take the equipment.. Oh yea and the Kuwaiti commanders that were hung at the main gate of Al Jaber AB and their body's left there for several days for everyone to see.. And before you say that both of these did'nt happen I have been there twice for several months and have seen the photgraphs and personally talked to the people that were witness to it.. It did happen.
Hey, it's not our fault the government didn't deprogram their killer before returning him to civilian life, and he still had a conscience left.
Apparently you have never been in the military... Because you have no real idea how the common soldier is taught or trained.. You probably have all your training from watching Full metal jacket baout 40 times.... Too bad the government has'nt deprogrammed you yet.... Because your cheese done fell off your cracker... (Okay so I stole that line from the Green Mile :)
You better put some ice on that, Oklahoma.]
He refers to the precious 19 children he murdered as "collateral Damage" and his only regret is that "their deaths proved to be a public relations nightmare that undercut his cause" ...
OF ALL THE GALL!!!!
[Seems to be that "collateral damage" has always the government's favorite term for all the civilians that got blown up, napalmed, shot, and otherwise met a sticky end because we were targeting something nearby and they were in the way.
I don't recall anyone saying "OF ALL THE GALL" when the Pentagon spokesperson joked about the unlucky civilians who just happened to be crossing the bridge when we blew it up. Of course, they doctored the video by running it faster to make it look like there was no time to make any other decision. Clever, these spokes-weasels.
Perhaps the term "collateral damage" will now be retired because of its association with Tim McVeigh. Perhaps the government could hold a jingle-writing contest to coin a new term for humans in the way when America, the country that never apologizes, chooses to send a political message with bombs and tanks.
Of course, if the 19 kids had been in an Iraqi government building, we would be referring to them by the politically correct terminology - "Human Shields."]
The Pictures of these children and the adults will always be in our minds...
[The advantage of being able to give the victims unlimited airtime to gripe over their loss. When's the last time you saw a 1-hour special of the Waco Victims' favorite family videos? No firemen holding dead babies for the cameras there.
Ohh I get it so we should'nt mourn over these individuals? Ok they deserved it because they were working there... and the kids across the street at the day care center deserved it too.... Interesting though the people in waco were given the chance to come out on their own several times.. Do I believe that the government got together and decided to kill everyone at the Waco compound? NO... Do I believe the governement made a mistake at Waco... YES... Do I believe Timothy McVeigh sought out to kill everyone he could at the federal bldg... YES.. Now going with your logic... I accidently and by bad judgement caused a wreck in my car.... I killed some people.. Should I be disciplined.. Most likely.. Should I die?.. Most probably not. Now you saw the accident and decided that because I was working for this certain company when I did it that your going to take your car and purposely run everyone traveling in that a company's van off the road and whne you do it you cause a 6 car pileup killing even more people.. Does this makes sense.. Certainly not.. Unless your insane....
Hey, did we ever rebuild all those neighborhoods we flattened in Panama?]
168 innocent people died that day. This man murdered them ... please do not make him some sort of hero ..He wants part of the proceeds to go to the Oklahoma City Memorial ...
[How innocent are civilians, really? They pay their taxes. They buy the bombs. Sometimes, as happened recently in the Zionist Entity, they elect a mass-murdering war criminal as their leader in an overwhelming landslide.
Okay so by your logic again, he should have come by your house and blown you up too...
The notion of not attacking civilian populations is really a very recent invention. Convenient, at the present time, for the US to bray mightily over.]
the OKC MEMORIAL Declines the money......
Send the Money to the Memorial ......
but PLEASE DO NOT BUY THIS BOOK....!!!!!!
Thank you.... and remember the precious children. so innocent....
[Well, precious when it is convenient for their charred bodies to be featured in a photo opportunity, for political purposes.
Sentient property for most other functions they are made to perform.]
Please pass this on to everyone you know, so this monster does not get any more publicity, that is all he wants is the publicity.
[Oh, I don't believe for an instant Tim McVeigh blew up the Murrah building because he wanted to become famous.
It was a calculated political act, for which he expected to sacrifice his life, in order to create "consequences of significance" for the government, for its behavior at Waco, Ruby Ridge, and numerous other places.
We may disagree with what he did, but let's not play propaganda games by trying to trivialize and belittle his actions, and portray them as some attempt at shameless self-promotion.]
Paul Hinchey, Captain Guymon Fire Dept. Guymon, OK
Thank-you, Paul. You may go and polish the fire truck now.
George Orwell once characterized the future as a "boot stomping on a human face, forever."
A better picture of the future might be a decorated Gulf War veteran, strapped to a board, needles injecting poison into his veins, while an enraptured audience of hundreds watches on TV, and the voice of Big Brother explains to them that this is what happens to people who confuse Truefacts with Goodfacts.
There are few more dangerous lines that a government may cross, than to kill citizens for committing purely political acts, even when those acts result in massive loss of life.
In an ideal world, McVeigh would be a soldier who malfunctioned, a person to be pitied. Of course, in an ideal world, the acts which drove McVeigh to act would never have been committed.
Drove him? Drove him how? You think the only way to make change in this country is to do violent acts? He was not a soldier who malfunctioned.. He was a man who made a decision and know he must pay for it.. Executions should be public just like the trials.. Otherwise we are no better than other countries where even the accused is represented by someone who works for the government... Hmmm.. I guess you did'nt learn everything you needed to know about life in kindergarten... If you wanna make change... Then become a public a voice.... Do you do anything more than sit in here and talk.. Does change happen overnight.. Hell no.... All that the violence is doing is giving the government more ammo to say "See.. told ya so"
Time will tell whether the McVeigh execution will appease the families of those his bomb killed and injured. Time will also tell if this closed-circuit demonstration of unstoppable government power against the individual will create another thousand Timothy McVeighs.
Probably will.. After all there are thousands of insane people out there... Jon Beets
Jon Beets writes:
Hmmm lets see, if I remember right that actually was not an air raid shelter it was a military hold which the people of the community were told was "safe" to hide in... Or am I just to believe that is our own government propaganda?
Yes, it was our own government propaganda, just like the "baby milk" factory being a top secret biological weapons manufacturing facility, and numerous other such examples from the war.
Hmm I guess all the Kuwaiti's that the Iraqi's killed brings nothing into this equation of yours? Including the removal of Kuwati babies from their incubators so the iraqis could take the equipment..
The famous "baby incubator" story was fiction performed in front of the US Congress to mobilize support for the war, and the supposed eyewitness was later revealed to be the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador. The entire episode was scripted by an American PR firm hired by the Kuwaiti government. Goodness, I thought everyone with more than five brain cells was aware of these undisputed facts, which were widely publicized at the time.
Oh yea and the Kuwaiti commanders that were hung at the main gate of Al Jaber AB and their body's left there for several days for everyone to see.. And before you say that both of these did'nt happen I have been there twice for several months and have seen the photgraphs and personally talked to the people that were witness to it.. It did happen.
As the old Russian saying goes, "He lied like an eyewitness." I am aware there there is no credible evidence supporting the first allegation, and I am not familiar with the second one. If you have such evidence, feel free to set up a web site, and let people judge for themselves.
Apparently you have never been in the military...
This is kind of like someone criticizing the parent beating their child with a 2x4, and the first words out of the parent's mouth are a smug - "You're obviously not a parent, are you?" The first sign of a nutcase is the attempt to disqualify everyone who isn't a member of their clique from commenting on their behavior. Particularly odd when the pathology of the behavior is apparently to almost everyone, without the need for special training.
Because you have no real idea how the common soldier is taught or trained.. You probably have all your training from watching Full metal jacket baout 40 times....
So, you post to Cypherpunks a lot, do you? I assure you I have a knowlege of not only how soldiers are trained, but the behavioral engineering behind it.
When's the last time you saw a 1-hour special of the Waco Victims' favorite family videos? No firemen holding dead babies for the cameras there.
Ohh I get it so we should'nt mourn over these individuals? Ok they deserved it because they were working there... and the kids across the street at the day care center deserved it too....
We should mourn all individuals unjustly slaughtered. We should also recognize that public outrage over such killings is directly proportional to the media airtime used to promote their victimhood. So clearly, the OK victims get a better opportunity to do this than the Waco victims. American lives, are, despite what you may believe, not worth more than the lives of any other humans on the planet.
Interesting though the people in waco were given the chance to come out on their own several times..
The first excuse of every bully is that the victim "made him do it" by not acquiesing to his demands.
Do I believe that the government got together and decided to kill everyone at the Waco compound? NO... Do I believe the governement made a mistake at Waco... YES...
The government got together and decided upon a course of action which showed reckless disregard for the people in the building, and had as its primary purpose a demonstration that no one may defy the government and get away with it. The safety of the people in the building was only a minor consideration. Was anyone held accountable for their deaths? NO... We had a commission whose purpose was to whitewash the whole thing, and write a report blaming the victims. Did the government make a "mistake" at Ruby Ridge too, where FBI Sniper Lon Horiuchi shot and killed Vicki Weaver as she held her baby in her arms?
Do I believe Timothy McVeigh sought out to kill everyone he could at the federal bldg... YES..
Yes, he tried to kill lots of people at the federal building. Your point? Tim McVeigh has no monopoly on killing large numbers of civilians while "sending a message" to some government. It wasn't Tim McVeigh who was quickly bulldozing the dead Panamanian citizens into mass graves just in time to get them out of the way for the arriving reporters. I could cite numerous other cases.
Drove him? Drove him how? You think the only way to make change in this country is to do violent acts?
"Terror is a very effective form of communication." --Delenn, Babylon 5 Now, if Tim McVeigh had tried to get 2/3 thirds of the states to ratify a Constitutional Amendment prohibiting the government from barbequing and shooting children, do you think he would have gotten his message sent as quickly or as effectively? Sometimes dirty deeds demand dirty retaliation. The United States is the world's foremost International Bully, and a premiere committer of violent acts to further its foreign policy goals. The United States has zero moral authority to criticize Tim McVeigh's methods.
He was not a soldier who malfunctioned.. He was a man who made a decision and know he must pay for it..
The US Government made some decisions, and now it has paid for them too. Sauce for the gander, and all that.
Executions should be public just like the trials.. Otherwise we are no better than other countries where even the accused is represented by someone who works for the government...
The last two federal trials I've followed, McVeigh's, and Jim Bell's, there was no doubt in any ones mind that the defense attorney was working for the government. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
At 02:10 PM 04/17/2001 -0700, Eric Cordian wrote:
Jon Beets writes:
Hmmm lets see, if I remember right that actually was not an air raid shelter it was a military hold which the people of the community were told was "safe" to hide in... Or am I just to believe that is our own government propaganda?
Yes, it was our own government propaganda, just like the "baby milk" factory being a top secret biological weapons manufacturing facility, and numerous other such examples from the war.
Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General and well-known leftie, did a movie about the Yankee-Iraqi war. He drove about 1000 miles in a week during the heavy bombing period - a lot of driving around at night with no headlights (so the Yankees don't bomb him, but at major risk of driving into craters in the road) and interviewing people who'd been affected. Some of the notable interviews were a neighborhood in Bagdhad that had half a dozen buildings bombed by US attempts to take out a bridge - the locals were starting to think about blowing it up themselves in self-defense when the US finally succeeded. Clark did a segment at the notorious "baby milk factory", and while it probably was legitimate, his film *really* looked like somebody trying to make a propaganda coverup pretending that this <pick your favorite bad activity> factory was a <perfectly innocent media-squishy liberal-guilt-tripping> baby milk factory. There was a pallet of bags of white powder with a sign in English saying "Baby Milk" on it, etc. Not one of the high points of an otherwise excellent movie. Of course, leave aside issues like the appropriateness or safety of baby formulas as a substitute for breast-feeding - many of the same liberals who watched the film have been boycotting Nestle' for years (and watching the Nestle' borg buy up the industry) because of their dishonest promotion of these products in the third world where average people don't have safe water supplies and can't afford the product, and would be much better off spending the money improving the nutrition of the babies' mothers...
participants (3)
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Bill Stewart -
Eric Cordian -
Jon Beets