At 07:19 AM 12/19/2003, Jim Dixon wrote:

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 Freematt357@aol.com wrote:

If Saddam had been less of an idiot, if he had left Kuwait alone, he would be relaxing in one of his palaces today and his sons would be out snatching women off the street, torturing people who had annoyed them -- you know, having a good night out.

[Jim, don't you ever do a bit of research on historical topics before spouting off? Google is your friend. Use it.] From Ramsey Clark's excellent "The Fire This Time". http://www.firethistime.org/linesscript.htm TRACK 3 : LINES IN THE SAND ----------------------------------------- One day after the Cease Fire, Kuwait announced plans to increase oil exports in defiance of OPEC quotas. The price of crude began to slide. In June '89, they stepped up production again. Iraq was hard hit. [1/74.] SHAKIB OUTAKI  OIL ANALYST For every fall of a dollar in the price of a barrel of oil, Iraq lost a billion dollars in income. While Iraq was at war, Kuwait had moved into the Rumailia oil field, shifting a border disputed since colonial times. In November, Kuwaiti officials met with the CIA and agreed: "to take advantage of the deteriorating economic situation in Iraq [] To put pressure on that countrys government to delineate our common border. The CIA gave us its view of appropriate means of pressure." [1] As oil prices collapsed, Kuwait demanded that Iraq repay its wartime debts. In December, the United States invaded Panama  without rebuke from the UN Security Council. The Soviet Empire was in chaos, the global pattern of relationships changing. US War Plan 1002  devised to counter a Russian threat in the Gulf - was updated, and now posed Iraq as the enemy. Early in 1990, General Norman Schwarzkopf briefed congress: "Middle East oil is the Wests lifeblood. [.] It is going to fuel us when the rest of the world has run dry." [2] Schwarzkopf advocated a permanent US presence in the Gulf. But in the wake of Soviet collapse, there were calls to cut military spending. New enemies had to be found. A white paper was drawn up which identified Iraq and Saddam Hussein as: ".the optimum contenders to replace the Warsaw pact." [3] There was just one problem. According to the US Army War College: "Baghdad should not be expected to deliberately provoke military confrontations with anyone." [4] US intelligence indicated that Iraqs desire was to reduce the army and repay their debts. But high unemployment made de-mobilisation impossible, inflation on the dinar was forty percent and rising, and the price of oil continued to fall. In May 1990, Saddam Hussein protested at Kuwaits continuing overproduction: "Were it possible we would have endured [] but I say that we have reached a point where we can no longer withstand pressure." [5] The Kuwaitis were dismissive, as an American official recalled: "When Iraqis came and said: Cant you do something about it? the Kuwaitis said: Sit on it. And they didnt even say it nicely. they were arrogant...they were terrible." [6] Charles Allen, the CIAs Officer for Warning predicted that Iraq would invade Kuwait. His report was shelved. In a diplomatic offensive, Iraq sent envoys to Arab states until Kuwait agreed to a summit. On July 10th new quotas were settled. On the 11th, Kuwait rejected them and announced plans to further increase production by October. Saddam Husseins patience was exhausted. [9/63.] Dr. PHOEBE MARR - US NATIONAL DEFENCE UNIVERSITY I think he came to believe [.] that Kuwait was over-producing oil not in its own interests but because it was goaded into that by the United States, in an effort to weaken Iraq. On July 15th, the Iraqis wrote to the Arab League and the UN Secretary General listing their grievances; on the 17th Saddam Hussein accused Kuwait of economic warfare; on the 18th, troops were sent to the border. Saddam Hussein summoned US Ambassador Glaspie and asked her to clarify the American position. "I have direct instructions from the President to seek better relations with Iraq. [] Our opinion is that you should have the opportunity to rebuild your country. But we have no opinion on Arab-Arab conflicts like your border disagreement with Kuwait." [7] As the crisis escalated, King Hussein of Jordan went to Kuwait to try and broker a compromise, to be told: "We are not going to respond..... If they don't like it, let them occupy our territory..... we are going to bring in the Americans." [8] As Iraqi forces moved to the front line, the Assistant Secretary of State was questioned in Congress: "If Iraq, for example, charged across the border into Kuwait [.] in that circumstance, is it correct to say [.] that we do not have a treaty commitment which would oblige us to engage US forces?" "That is correct." [9] On the 2nd of August, Iraq invaded. --------------------------------------- steve Charles Allen, the CIAs Officer for Warning predicted that Iraq would invade Kuwait. His report was shelved. "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933

-- On 19 Dec 2003 at 10:57, Steve Schear wrote:

[Jim, don't you ever do a bit of research on historical topics before spouting off? Google is your friend. Use it.]

From Ramsey Clark's excellent "The Fire This Time". http://www.firethistime.org/linesscript.htm TRACK 3 : LINES IN THE SAND

Ramsey Clark is a commie liar, and nothing he says can be believed. Saddam was warned that if he took Kuwait, terrible consequences might well follow. The USG did not say 'If you invade, we will destroy you', but it dropped some big hnts. Similarly the USG has not said that if China invades Taiwan, the USG will intervene, but it would be as big a lie to claim that China has been given a green light to invade Taiwan, as it is for Ramsey to claim that Iraq was given a green light to invade Kuwait. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 6nmQ6oALALYVD6KMm0uQKHLydJjRTz9vOdEDXU2D 4u6vntrCQzPWGzEVTMYO8Vn5JtY6VgucabFVa03fH

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This "green light" story is a commie lie (originally a Baathist lie, but these days mostly repeated by commies)

I take it then that the heroic rescue of Private Jessica Lynch is also the truth, while the story about the use of excessive (and unnecessary) to "free" her is also a commie lie. I am just wondering, but is anything that has happened (or is happening) in Iraq and done by the US / Western powers wrong in your eyes, or simply can they do no wrong? Michael -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.3 iQA/AwUBP+NuNWlCnxcrW2uuEQJ/PQCcDO5sjq/Gs/2sVK31cVl/Zdq0v/YAoIuW HYwUlpWDsjD/OUpdCRooFbSZ =FKfd -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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The US has global hegemony because in reality its policies are reasonable, because it isn't worth anyone's while to try to oppose it.

that I would like to oppose. It is rather the fact that in the past it wasn't very feasible. The world is getting smaller. People can fly airplanes now in every part of the world. What you see happening right now is what happened back in the late 1800s and in the early 20th century when the colonies started to rise up. The difference this time around is that the oppressed have the ability to strike back where it hurts: In the homeland. None of the colonial powers got away with it forever, sooner or later the price was too high and to think that the US is above the lesson learned it will be in for a rude awakening.

European calculations are the same: the potential cost of challenging the US is incalculable, the potential gain relatively miniscule. Come on, let's go down to the pub instead.

Still... I wouldn't count on it though. China is picking up steam, the EU is expanding and the fight over Iraq let Europe to move closer together, not further apart. Aznar and Berlusconi did what they did because they tried to have a voice in the EU that was mightier than it really is (they are afraid to loose subsidies when the EU expands eastward). Berlusconi also is on a power trip and tries to become the next Duce in Italy. Chances are neither of them will survive for much longer. Even with the Berlusconi controlled media in Italy people took notice. The little bit of democracy we have might still make a change. M. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.3 iQA/AwUBP+NLM2lCnxcrW2uuEQK5ZQCeJrNQDq5J7C6Sfl3ePoAid9cH9OIAmwQZ X0cFkSbhnj4LxvYuOgMtO7w+ =ETH9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----