Tim and Paul present accurate evidence mitigating some of my specific points. I agree that the AV Macs and AOCE are steps (or even leaps) towards a platform favorable for clipper infestation. .....BEGIN HAIR SPLITTING MESSAGE..... I would like to fine tune one of Tim's comments:
#1 and #2 are already satisfied with the new generation of av Macs, as
These machines most certainly do not contain the clipper chip (which I'm sure Tim did not mean to imply), though they do show that Apple can make machines with special purpose hardware and capabilities not present, or emulatable, on earlier machines (this, I think, was Tim's point: a counter example to my speculation). It is illuminating to note, however, that the 880av is not based on the same hardware as the 800. It is an earlier generation that took longer to come to market. In this sense it recalls the late IIfx i.e., faster for a while and then a dead end. In many ways, the 800 is a superior machine, and the 880 has some catching up to do (like adding interleaved RAM access, for one). By my count, the 880 has taken over three years to come to market. Summary: the AV Macs may indicate a new trend, but they do not represent an immediate foothold for clipper. .....END HAIR SPLITTING MESSAGE..... Other than that, and although they come to slightly different conclusions, I agree with Tim and Paul, who examined the root motives rather than 'diagnosing for symptoms'. My final take on this is: Apples history and our guesses about its likely motives lead me to (still) predict that Apple can't immediately jump on the Clipper bandwagon; though the further out we speculate (beyond 2 years?), the less faith in this prediction we can justify. I like to be wrong almost as much as I like to be right. More, if the pay is better. Scott Collins | "Few people realize what tremendous power there | is in one of these things." -- Willy Wonka ......................|................................................ BUSINESS. voice:408.862.0540 fax:974.6094 collins@newton.apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. 1 Infinite Loop, MS 301-2C Cupertino, CA 95014 ....................................................................... PERSONAL. voice/fax:408.257.1746 1024:669687 catalyst@netcom.com
It is very satisfying to me to see a post turn into a mini-debate (not a flame...entirely too many debates are wrongly labelled as flames) and then get resolved into a consens. I agree with Scott that Apple is not likely to implement Clipper/etc. anytime soon.
Tim and Paul present accurate evidence mitigating some of my specific points. I agree that the AV Macs and AOCE are steps (or even leaps) towards a platform favorable for clipper infestation.
This is all I meant, that _someone_ at Apple (and probably other companies) is at least _talking_ to the Clipperpunks. Maybe it's just "distant future" stuff, maybe it's industry panels, perhaps it's the AOCE stuff Paul mentioned, and perhaps its the long-rumored telephone product for the AV Macs (the true paranoid might see the failure of Apple to unveil the modem and phone apps, using the DSP chip, as evidence that Fort Meade has asked them to delay these products...as I am not a true Xandor Korzybski-class paranoid, I will refrain from such speculations!).
These machines most certainly do not contain the clipper chip (which I'm sure Tim did not mean to imply), though they do show that Apple can make machines with special purpose hardware and capabilities not present, or emulatable, on earlier machines (this, I think, was Tim's point: a counter example to my speculation).
Yep, I was just making this point, that Apple is _already_ releasing hardware with OS incompatibilities. (By the way, many/all? of the newer Macs need a "system enabler" patch to run System 7.1, that is, the standard System (OS) no longer runs on all machines. I could easily see such patches for the AV Macs and the (debated) ClipperMacs.
Other than that, and although they come to slightly different conclusions, I agree with Tim and Paul, who examined the root motives rather than 'diagnosing for symptoms'. My final take on this is:
Apples history and our guesses about its likely motives lead me to (still) predict that Apple can't immediately jump on the Clipper bandwagon; though the further out we speculate (beyond 2 years?), the less faith in this prediction we can justify.
On this we agree also. Moreover, when the "Clipper asteroid" is possibly heading in your direction, but is still very far off, a relatively small nudge can have great effect. I'm not suggesting we rise up in righteous anger and march in front of Spindler's offices, but we should keep in the back of our mind the _possibility_ that makers of computer-based phones or conferencing systems: Apple, IBM, NeXT _cubes_, SGI "Indy," and perhaps Soundblaster folks...though I am even more skeptical that independent DSP board makers could be brought into the Clipper fold. If the NIST/NSA group wants Clipper/Capstone/etc. deployed widely, then it would make sense for them to be working with computer and multimedia companies. Else, in several years these DSP-based schemes will have proliferated beyond any hope of control. An outcome devoutly to be wished. -Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it.
I would like to fine tune one of Tim's comments:
#1 and #2 are already satisfied with the new generation of av Macs, as
These machines most certainly do not contain the clipper chip (which I'm sure Tim did not mean to imply), though they do show that Apple can make
In rereading my post earlier today on this issue, I can see I took Scott to be referring to "a new standard" as any new specialized hardware, such as the either the AV DSP stuff or the Clipper, etc. But Scott was apparently using the _specific_ case of a Clipper inside as the case he was citing. Sorry for any confusion. I certainly agree that Clipper is far off, if it happens, but specialized hardware is already a reality with the new generation of AV Macs. And I don't dismiss the possibility, thought I consider it remote, that the phone/modem tools have been delayed for reasons relating to Clipper and key escrow. More likely, delayed because something just didn't work in time for the announcement. -Tim -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it.
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