Declan McCullagh writes:
On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 06:00:46PM +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote:
Some terrorists have exactly this as their goal. They are hoping to trigger a counter-reaction, an over-reaction, by the authorities. They want to see a crackdown on liberties, a police state. This will weaken the enemy and demoralize him. It will increase hostility and make the population less willing to support the government.
This is nonsense. I suspect the bin Laden want the U.S. to stop handing Israel billions of dollars a year in aid and weapons. Not bombing pharmecutical plants and lifting an embargo that kills hundreds of thousands (allegedly) of Iraqi women and children might be a nice move too.
It's always amazing to see how stupid the responses are to various messages. There seems to be no limit to the ignorance of the cypherpunks. It is well known that this is a motivation for many terrorists. If you will not believe it from an anonymous message, perhaps you will be convinced by quotes from the two co-founders of the cypherpunks, both of whom have said exactly the same thing in messages posted today: Tim May wrote in 1996 and reposted today: : Revolutionary theory says of course that this increased clampdown is a : desired effect of terrorist bombings and attacks. Fear and doubt. : Revolutionary ends rarely happen by slow, incremental movement. Hundreds of : examples, from the original "bomb-throwing anarchists" to the modern mix of : terrorist bands. The Red Brigade in Italy sought a fascist crackdown, and : the "strategy of tension" is common. (And even revolutionists of crypto : anarchist persuasion often think laws like the CDA are good in the long : run, by undermining respect for authority and triggering more extreme : reactions....) Note his comment about how the Communications Decency Act is actually considered good by revolutionaries of the crypto anarchist persuasion. Know any of those? Gee, the anonymous message made exactly the same point earlier, that someone like Tim May would welcome crackdowns on freedom. Eric Hughes wrote today (in a beautiful message that deserves to be widely distributed): : The goal of these terrorists is to : restrict freedoms in America, to steal its essence and to weaken it. I : shall pray we do not cooperate with this their goal in a hot-headed rush to : immediate results. The same point, made each time: that the terrorists seek to weaken America by causing what Tim May calls an "increased clampdown", what Eric Hughes describes as "to restrict freedoms in America", and what the anonymous poster characterized as "a crackdown on liberties". The difference is that Tim May welcomes the change; Eric Hughes pleads against it; and the anonymous poster merely calls upon cypherpunks to recognize that they have a choice between these contrasting views. There are two contrasting forces at the heart of the cypherpunk philosophy, well exemplified by the two co-founders, and their messages posted today show the difference well. The dark anger of May versus the bright hope of Hughes. Make your choice.
On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 02:20:09AM +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote:
There are two contrasting forces at the heart of the cypherpunk philosophy, well exemplified by the two co-founders, and their messages posted today show the difference well.
The dark anger of May versus the bright hope of Hughes. Make your choice.
It is beyond silly to talk about a mailing list that has probably had tens of thousands of subscribers over its lifetime as having only two primary philosophies of substance. In fact, the "dark anger" we're likely to see will grace the tip of Tomahawk and other missiles en route to their targets. -Declan
On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote:
Declan McCullagh writes:
On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 06:00:46PM +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote:
Some terrorists have exactly this as their goal. They are hoping to trigger a counter-reaction, an over-reaction, by the authorities. They want to see a crackdown on liberties, a police state. This will weaken the enemy and demoralize him. It will increase hostility and make the population less willing to support the government.
This is nonsense. I suspect the bin Laden want the U.S. to stop handing Israel billions of dollars a year in aid and weapons. Not bombing pharmecutical plants and lifting an embargo that kills hundreds of thousands (allegedly) of Iraqi women and children might be a nice move too.
It's always amazing to see how stupid the responses are to various messages. There seems to be no limit to the ignorance of the cypherpunks.
There is certainly no limit to the stupidity of those who would try to twist our views to those of trolls, schills, and fools. Any two bit moron can tell us what we should think. I believe it is our responsability to point this out publically, and let others take notice that we are subtly manipulated by those with an agenda. If you are indeed the same anonymous troll (note: not that I believe anonymous remailers are bad!) who yesterday posted that cryptography was bad, that cypherpunks are responsible in any way shape or form with this terrorist act, that the DMCA and the like are good, my answer to you is still: Go fuck yourself. The terrorists have several agendas certainly. One of which is causing fear uncertainty and doubt. Sadly, there are reports that this is somewhat sucessful. I personally, do not and will not feel fear, uncertainty or doubt. I will not allow this event to cloud or otherwise alter the way in which I live. The only change in me, and again, I do not claim to speak for others, is that I feel rage towards them. I do not believe that any heightened security measures at airports or anywhere else will prevent this sort of thing from happening again. Previously, they had used guns, now they used knives, to hijack airplanes. Previously they have used car bombs. I do not believe they will continue to do the same because of the clampdowns. But it is silly to think that anything short of hunting these bastards down would stop them. Curtailing any of our freedoms is inherently a bad side effect, and mark my words, will not prevent further attacks. One good thing that comes out of this is the deployment of sky marshals as they are being called. Finally someone somewhere has sense enough to realize that "Gun" is not a four letter word and is necessary. But what happens when they manage to switch places with a sky marshal and thus have a vector of infiltration? Shouldn't the pilots, crew and yes, even passengers have guns? Again, I operate with the full and confident knowlege that 90+% of the population is good and law abiding. That allowing the public to be its own defender is by far more effective than disarming them. The one proven effective way to deal with them was displayed by the heros who rushed the cabin and forced the fourth plane down in Pittsburgh. We as a society have become too complacent, too much the sheeple. We must re-learn what the founders of this country knew. That liberty must be defended and fought for. With our lives. We must not restrict our freedoms, we must rather fight back with everything we've got. The terroristas' agenda may be one of revenge, FUD, economic collapse, and wishes to cause the public to force the government to change our policies towards Israel and interfearing in their countries. They do not wish us to tighten security, for that would work against them, but in a very real sense, if we do, we allow their acts to curtail our freedoms, and that is the only thing that separates our country's form of government from the Taliban run Afghanistan. Yes, we have more land, more resources, a better economy than they do. But our freedoms are key to this success as Soviet run Russia has shown. Freedom is what has made us prosperous, and if we curtail it, we march towards the evil that is totalitarianism regardless of which face it wears (monarchist, religeous, fascist, socialist, or communist.) Sure, it was a stupid idea for the USA to help create the state of Israel by taking land from Arabs that already hate Israelites and by placing it square in the center of said Arabs, of placing the lamb so it is surrounded by wolves. Sure it was stupid of the USA to train and arm these bastards* when they were called "Freedom fighters." But the stupidest thing we have done is to allow them to live and grow. Never let an enemy stand is the golden rule, and perhaps now we have learned it. When someone declares war on the USA, even if they're just a bunch of guys that live in tents and fuck camels for fun, they have shown that they are willing to cause us harm, and therefore must be exterminated - just as we would the government of a country that has declared war on us. Not by attacking their civilians, but by chopping down the heads of these groups. And further, I hope that the $24B dollars that the Fed's have given us in NYC will be used to rebuild a new World Trade Center with three such towers. They must see that if they knock down two towers, we will build three or four or even five bigger ones. Such a rebuilding effort would help our economy by itself. They must learn that they will not be able to weaken us, but rather strengthen us. These events were very low tech, very well planned, very inexpensive. It would not take a great deal of resources, it would not take anonymous remailers, cryptography, steganography, missles, tanks, bombs, or anything of the like to pull off. It proved that it didn't even take guns. It proved that the sheeple among us who have been crying out against guns, who have kicked our children out of schools for drawing pictures of their grandfathers in uniform fighting in WWI, Korea, Vietnam or WWII, who have berated and vilified cryptography, privacy, and liberty were mindless stupid sheep **. It proves that had we been allowed to carry guns openely and honestly, even in airplanes, that the bastard* terroristas would not have been able to pull this off. It proves that attacks on our freedoms are inherently wrong, and that they make us vulnerable against those who wish to harm us. One story I wish to add to my rant, when I was in elementry school, another kid had stabbed me in the arm with a sharpened pencil. No harm was done, but if it had been a knife the other kid would have been in deep shit. Even if we were to ban knives on air planes, what's to stop other terrorists from simply weilding sharpened pencils? A man with a gun, that's what! And what would stop a man with a gun from attacking mere unarmed citizens? Armed citizens, that's what! And what's to stop hacker terrorists from breaking into our banks? Strong well designed cryptographic protocols, that's what! Making laws against these technologies will do what? Weaken us and make us defenseless against these terror mongers, that's what! * It is hillarious to note that someone has actually bothered to email me on my use of the word "Bastard" claiming that she is a good person though her parents were out of wedlock at the time of her birth. I'm glad that the political correct police has the intestinal fortitude and brightness to place their priorities in order when something of this nature takes effect. I'm sure it will be of great comfort to the thousands that have died in these events that she has done her honorable act and attempted to set me straight on my use of language. Hopefully she has also done constructive things such as donating blood and money. ** I'm sure some other politically correct asshole will email me about how much he is in love with his flock of sheep after diddling them and how it would be wrong of me to blame sheep for those of us who act as cowardly sheep.
participants (3)
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Declan McCullagh -
Nomen Nescio -
Sunder