IP: RE: Senate votes to permit warrantless Net-wiretaps, Carn ivoreus e (fwd)
-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204/">leitl</a> ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:50:31 -0400 From: David Farber <dave@farber.net> Reply-To: farber@cis.upenn.edu To: ip-sub-1@majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: RE: Senate votes to permit warrantless Net-wiretaps, Carn ivore us e
From: "Baker, Stewart" <SBaker@steptoe.com> To: "'Declan McCullagh'" <declan@well.com>, farber@cis.upenn.edu, ip-sub-1@majordomo.pobox.com cc: "Albertazzie, Sally" <SAlbertazzie@steptoe.com>, "Baker, Stewart" <SBaker@steptoe.com>
Declan,
I ignored the first two points because I don't think they're that important. These "warrantless searches" are emergency orders that have to be followed by a court order in 48 hours. Sometimes courts are closed and the cops need data right away. Tuesday evening would be a good example. This is not some out-of-control police authority.
The people who can ask for emergency orders have to be designated by one of several officials at Main Justice. That's to make sure someone responsible ends up with the authority to declare an emergency. So an assistant US attorney could be designated by Main Justice in each district right now. What's the big deal with letting the US Attorney for the district do the designating instead of Main Justice? Seems to me that the US Attorney probably knows more about staff changeovers than Main Justice, so it makes sense for the US Attorney to do the designating locally.
Stewart
For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/
I'll have the entire exchange, including my next response to Stu, up on politechbot.com in a few hours. -Declan On Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 04:03:20PM +0200, Eugene Leitl wrote:
-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204/">leitl</a> ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3
---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:50:31 -0400 From: David Farber <dave@farber.net> To: ip-sub-1@majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: RE: Senate votes to permit warrantless Net-wiretaps, Carn ivore us e
From: "Baker, Stewart" <SBaker@steptoe.com> To: "'Declan McCullagh'" <declan@well.com>, farber@cis.upenn.edu, ip-sub-1@majordomo.pobox.com cc: "Albertazzie, Sally" <SAlbertazzie@steptoe.com>, "Baker, Stewart" <SBaker@steptoe.com>
Declan,
I ignored the first two points because I don't think they're that important. These "warrantless searches" are emergency orders that have to be followed by a court order in 48 hours. Sometimes courts are closed and the cops need data right away. Tuesday evening would be a good example. This is not some out-of-control police authority.
The people who can ask for emergency orders have to be designated by one of several officials at Main Justice. That's to make sure someone responsible ends up with the authority to declare an emergency. So an assistant US attorney could be designated by Main Justice in each district right now. What's the big deal with letting the US Attorney for the district do the designating instead of Main Justice? Seems to me that the US Attorney probably knows more about staff changeovers than Main Justice, so it makes sense for the US Attorney to do the designating locally.
Stewart
For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/
Declan,
I ignored the first two points because I don't think they're that important. These "warrantless searches" are emergency orders that have to be followed by a court order in 48 hours. Sometimes courts are closed and the cops need data right away. Tuesday evening would be a good example. This is not some out-of-control police authority.
This is TOTALLY and example of out-of-control police authority. Courts are open 24 jours a day for the purposes of abtaining warrants, or for other emergencies - in EVERY court in the United States. Doubt it? Go to any courthouse where there is a real judge (not a local "magistrate" or equiv), and ask for a copy of the "Local Rules of Court". -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------
The debate is now posted here: http://www.politechbot.com/p-02518.html -Declan On Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 10:39:47AM -0500, measl@mfn.org wrote:
Declan,
I ignored the first two points because I don't think they're that important. These "warrantless searches" are emergency orders that have to be followed by a court order in 48 hours. Sometimes courts are closed and the cops need data right away. Tuesday evening would be a good example. This is not some out-of-control police authority.
This is TOTALLY and example of out-of-control police authority. Courts are open 24 jours a day for the purposes of abtaining warrants, or for other emergencies - in EVERY court in the United States. Doubt it? Go to any courthouse where there is a real judge (not a local "magistrate" or equiv), and ask for a copy of the "Local Rules of Court".
J.A. Terranson, measl@mfn.org, or some impostor wrote:
This is TOTALLY and example of out-of-control police authority. Courts are open 24 jours a day for the purposes of abtaining warrants, or for other emergencies - in EVERY court in the United States. Doubt it? Go to any courthouse where there is a real judge (not a local "magistrate" or equiv), and ask for a copy of the "Local Rules of Court".
Hear, hear! That's particularly true for Feds pursuing terrorists - there are enough Federal judges, either regular or FISA Star Chamber types, that any cop who's doing something other than hot pursuit can get a warrant any time they need to - and if Congress doesn't think this is the case, the solution is not to drop the Constitution, it's to hire some extra judges to work nights, and give them an internet connection to keep busy on slow nights. What's much harder to do in real time is give the judge enough real evidence for more than a rubber-stamp review. Even that's better than nothing, because it keeps the cops maintaining some pretense of respect for law and creates accounting records of the warrants, but it's likely to be pretty shoddy.
participants (4)
-
Bill Stewart -
Declan McCullagh -
Eugene Leitl -
measl＠mfn.org