At some point you draw a line for yourself. All tech you make can and will be used in murders, directly or indirectly. If you think denying a monetary gift as a sacrifice to try and prevent people-killing-research from maybe happening, you're taking quite an indirect turn to preventing the inevitable. Werner likely chose to accept the generous offer to have him build awesome rocket engines, worst he could do is help his country. We don't blame Turing for his work even though it helps millions of computer-guided missiles even today. I'm saying it's okay to develop something you really want to build. Doing so when you know it'll help in anything unethical, more so than it will anything ethical, you don't. You can neither stop DARPA from developing weapons, some really believe what they do is for the good of all, nor can you prevent progress. Stop trying. Don't do anything unethical. Convince others to feel about it the same way you do. Atom bombs really did inspire so much awe and horror that we're closer to world peace than we ever were. It's always just the way you look at things. TL;DR: offers to give you money for free, don't be an idiot. Just be sure it's really free. 2011/12/7 Eugen Leitl <eugen@leitl.org>

----- Forwarded message from Moritz Bartl <moritz@torservers.net> -----

From: Moritz Bartl <moritz@torservers.net> Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 08:49:19 +0100 To: liberationtech@lists.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [liberationtech] Fwd: [hackerdojo] DARPA Funding for Hackerspaces: Good or Evil? User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0

On 06.12.2011 06:48, Yosem Companys wrote:

...

Interesting coincidence that while liberationtech was talking about funding and net activism, the hacker spaces (e.g., Noisebridge, HackerDojo, etc.) have been having a similar discussion...

In my opinion, the best statement regarding DARPA funding for hackerspaces was made by Mitch Altman on the hackerspaces.org list:

Let me quote it here in full: ---- snip ---- My view is a bit different. You don't have to agree, but please consider: DARPA is a government agency that exists to further its goals. It seems to me that those goals are to make things easier and better for hurting and killing other people. It seems to me that this is why they exist. If people working for DARPA are giving grant money away, it is to further the goals of DARPA. This isn't to say that good things can't be done with DARPA money. But DARPA is spending this money explicitly to further the goals of DARPA -- and it *will* be used to further those goals.

Werner von Braun was an incredible visionary. He wanted to explore space! It was his lifelong dream. He found an opportunity for funding his dream when Hitler offered to pay for him to make rockets. Those rockets were used to destroy the lives of civilians in London in the form of V2 missiles. After the war, he was eventually hired by NASA to make rockets that eventually became the basis of the US space program. Was this a good trade off? I know how I feel. I don't want to tell others what to do, or what to think or feel. Please make up your own mind.

In my mind, I would rather change projects than hurt others in order to fulfill the goals of my project. But, before changing projects, perhaps there are other means of funding it, or allowing the project to proceed. Those other means are way worth exploring.

One other point I feel is worth considering: A powerful method of marketing is to associate PRODUCT X with a warm and fuzzy feeling. Repeat that enough times, and enough people subconsciously associate a warm-fuzzy feeling with PRODUCT X, and sales of PRODUCT X go up some percentage. PRODUCT X can be dish soap, a soft drink, a TV show, a political candidate, a banana republic dictator, green-washing corporate image -- anything the people paying for the marketing request. PRODUCT X can also be DARPA. If we make more warm and fuzzy associations with DARPA (by using their money for what we feel is *good*), then some people will more likely feel it is OK to work for an agency to further the goals of DARPA -- and those goals may not be in line with what you believe is of true benefit to you and those around you. Or it may. Again, please think this through for yourself. And please make a conscious choice.

Best, Mitch. ---- snip ---- http://lists.hackerspaces.org/pipermail/discuss/2011-December/005189.html

-- Moritz Bartl https://www.torservers.net/ _______________________________________________ liberationtech mailing list liberationtech@lists.stanford.edu

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----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE