Well, this is not exactly on topic to any ongoing thread, but its something I'd like to get a few opinions on. It seems that while science is moving ahead at a such a rate that I'm constantly amazed to see science fiction becoming science fact, at the same time we're seeing more political(?)-fiction(nightmares?) becoming fact as well in the form of government censorship and persecution. As I'm not exactly excited about the prospect of being shot or winding up in jail indefinitely for 'political crimes', it seems the best options are to simply leave the country altogether or forget about the personal freedoms granted by the constitution. So my question is: where to go? I certainly don't want to leave behind all the neat toys in the US like widespread broadband internet access, massive bookstores, high paying tech jobs, etc. Is there any country that has the same technological benefits as the US without the government steadily encroaching into every sector of life? How does one 'drop out' of the US and keep all the good things one has become accustomed to? "The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." - Thomas Jefferson
"A. Melon" wrote:
...it seems the best options are to simply leave the country.... So my question is: where to go? I certainly don't want to leave behind all the neat toys in the US like widespread broadband internet access...
StarBand (http://starband.com/) is expanding internationally. It will soon be available in Latin America, for example. Plus, broadband is available in many countries already.
...massive bookstores...
Amazon.com, plus massive bookstores are fairly common outside the US. Even Singapore has its MPH chain of bookstores. ...high paying tech jobs... You ARE telecommuting already, right? I have a friend who lives on a private island in Florida. He collects Silicon Valley wages while having a rural cost of living. There are extreme telecommuters working out of Bali. S a n d y
On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, A. Melon wrote:
Well, this is not exactly on topic to any ongoing thread, but its something I'd like to get a few opinions on. It seems that while science is moving ahead at a such a rate that I'm constantly amazed to see science fiction becoming science fact, at the same time we're seeing more political(?)-fiction(nightmares?) becoming fact as well in the form of government censorship and persecution. As I'm not exactly excited about the prospect of being shot or winding up in jail indefinitely for 'political crimes', it seems the best options are to simply leave the country altogether or forget about the personal freedoms granted by the constitution.
So my question is: where to go? I certainly don't want to leave behind all the neat toys in the US like widespread broadband internet access, massive bookstores, high paying tech jobs, etc. Is there any country that has the same technological benefits as the US without the government steadily encroaching into every sector of life?
Honestly? I don't think so. Broadband is going to be planetwide in a couple of years, and massive bookstores can be found in major cities in every city on earth, or accessed remotely from anywhere if you just want to buy books. But government encroachment is also increasing planetwide as the cost of surveillence and restriction is driven down by new technology. If you're profoundly optimistic about such things, there's a dude who has renamed himself as 'Lazarus Long' who is trying to found a nation based on strictly libertarian principles and has gotten as far as getting national sovereignty over a tiny island that has basically zero natural resources. Personally I think it's going to be very marginal and isn't likely to last more than a dozen years -- leaving those who get mixed up in it at a risk of becoming stateless persons who may be shat upon by any government on the planet. Or you could try Nauru -- ten thousand people, more or less, on an island now ecologically ruined by mining -- but it's a republic and the citizens still have representation. And it's English-speaking. They are deliberately trying to cultivate an offshore-banking business, so there are opportunities for net-savvy people capable of tending server farms and caring for customer privacy there. But they may find that their close ties to Australia are strained if they take customer privacy too seriously. The problem with Nauru is they have to import all their food except for some fish caught locally, so if they refuse to cooperate with the systematic sheepshearing of citizens globally, they are likely to find themselves hungry, or spending all their banking profits paying blockade-runners for taking insane risks. If you feel so completely fed up that you want to do without government completely, there's always Somalia -- but you will need a gun, and if you have other property you'd like to keep, the will to use it. Bear
"A. Melon" wrote:
Well, this is not exactly on topic to any ongoing thread, but its something I'd like to get a few opinions on. It seems that while science is moving ahead at a such a rate that I'm constantly amazed to see science fiction becoming science fact, at the same time we're seeing more political(?)-fiction(nightmares?) becoming fact as well in the form of government censorship and persecution. As I'm not exactly excited about the prospect of being shot or winding up in jail indefinitely for 'political crimes', it seems the best options are to simply leave the country altogether or forget about the personal freedoms granted by the constitution.
So my question is: where to go?
You don't have a whole lot of choice. Few places in the world do even as well as the US in the broad range of things you might be interested in.
I certainly don't want to leave behind all the neat toys in the US like
widespread broadband internet access,
Any rich country has this, at least in towns, and enclaves in a lot of poor ones.
massive bookstores,
Ditto. We probably have better ones over here in Britain than you guys do. But you might not like other things about us.
high paying tech jobs,
If you are techy enough you can get these anywhere. You get paid less in poor places of course, but then things are cheaper.
Is there any country that has the same technological benefits as the US without the government steadily encroaching into every sector of life?
Nope. Most European countries have more restrictive laws than you do, though in practice the difference isn't that great. Everywhere you will get government interference, it depends what you object to most. The kind of personal firearms that are common in the USA are illegal almost everywhere else. But then your crazy US alcohol laws are the laughing stock of the rest of the non-Muslim world. In Singapore you can get banged up for spitting in the street.
How does one 'drop out' of the US and keep all the good things one has become accustomed to?
Maybe by being very rich and in effect living in a fortress? Or by making do with less money.
Belize? Unless you're looking for somewhere that doesn't have extradition laws with the US? Sri Lanka, Arthur C. Clarke is there... Not sure if they extradite.. Of course they have terrorists. ming [This is a sig file] On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, Ken Brown wrote:
"A. Melon" wrote:
Well, this is not exactly on topic to any ongoing thread, but its something I'd like to get a few opinions on. It seems that while science is moving ahead at a such a rate that I'm constantly amazed to see science fiction becoming science fact, at the same time we're seeing more political(?)-fiction(nightmares?) becoming fact as well in the form of government censorship and persecution. As I'm not exactly excited about the prospect of being shot or winding up in jail indefinitely for 'political crimes', it seems the best options are to simply leave the country altogether or forget about the personal freedoms granted by the constitution.
So my question is: where to go?
You don't have a whole lot of choice. Few places in the world do even as well as the US in the broad range of things you might be interested in.
I certainly don't want to leave behind all the neat toys in the US like
widespread broadband internet access,
Any rich country has this, at least in towns, and enclaves in a lot of poor ones.
massive bookstores,
Ditto. We probably have better ones over here in Britain than you guys do. But you might not like other things about us.
high paying tech jobs,
If you are techy enough you can get these anywhere. You get paid less in poor places of course, but then things are cheaper.
Is there any country that has the same technological benefits as the US without the government steadily encroaching into every sector of life?
Nope. Most European countries have more restrictive laws than you do, though in practice the difference isn't that great. Everywhere you will get government interference, it depends what you object to most. The kind of personal firearms that are common in the USA are illegal almost everywhere else. But then your crazy US alcohol laws are the laughing stock of the rest of the non-Muslim world. In Singapore you can get banged up for spitting in the street.
How does one 'drop out' of the US and keep all the good things one has become accustomed to?
Maybe by being very rich and in effect living in a fortress?
Or by making do with less money.
At 7:19 PM +0100 7/6/01, Ken Brown wrote:
"A. Melon" wrote: ...
'political crimes', it seems the best options are to simply leave the country altogether or forget about the personal freedoms granted by the constitution.
So my question is: where to go?
How does one 'drop out' of the US and keep all the good things one has become accustomed to?
Maybe by being very rich and in effect living in a fortress?
Or by making do with less money.
There seem to be two basic approaches: 1. Obscurity. Don't rock the boat. Hide assets (judgement-proofing). Don't become a visible target. 2. Active Defense. Hire lawyers. Protect assets (judgement-proofing). I believe the "living in a fortress" solution falls into the second category. However, it's not very effective. Lawsuits cross property lines very easily...ask Dennis Rodman, Donald Trump, etc. Likewise, Waco showed that if law enforcement decides to make an example out of someone or some group (over fairly trivial charges, never even really proved), even a fortress compound will not help. In fact, any such fortress brings in more firepower, and charges of "barricading." The first approach is favored by some. It has drawbacks. Only "A. Melon" knows what his or her situation is, so advice is not possible. I will say that there is no country out there that seems to be beyond the reach of U.S. law enforcement, pace the points we discuss so often about drug warriors, freezing of accounts, extradition, etc. Even Yugoslavia has just bowed to U.S. financing pressures (sending Milosevic to the Hague for a show trial). While I've never been to Anguilla, any hope that it is some kind of libertarian paradise has always been nonsensical. (I said this half a dozen years ago, of course, upon hearing the list of banned items, including "Playboy," and about the rule by the "seven families.") I used to live near Monaco as a kid, and have been back a couple of times. A police state, in the sense that residents are surveilled by cameras mounted in public places. What Stephenson would call a "burbclave," except heavily urbanized. The residents don't mind being taped and scrutinized--cuts way down on street crime. But not a place for one of a dissident outlook. Residency (and tax advantages) does not come easy, and people like us need not apply. And so it goes. I have no plans to leave. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay@got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
I was thinking online obscurity (nyms, pseudonymous web pages etc) coupled with a low tax jurisdiction like Anguilla wouldn't be one interesting combination. But there are plenty of disadvantages too -- limited amenities - shops, computer parts, the advantages being within reasonable travelling distance of a large western city affords. The inconvenience and cost of travelling from a remote locale such as Anguilla if you do much international travelling to visit family, friends, conferences etc. Apparently there are some tax advantages to residing in some Swiss cantons. But as Tim says there aren't really any jurisdictions which offer significant advantages in physical and financial privacy over general western jurisdictions. Adam
On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Adam Back wrote:
I was thinking online obscurity (nyms, pseudonymous web pages etc) coupled with a low tax jurisdiction like Anguilla wouldn't be one interesting combination.
But there are plenty of disadvantages too -- limited amenities - shops, computer parts, the advantages being within reasonable travelling distance of a large western city affords. The inconvenience and cost of travelling from a remote locale such as Anguilla if you do much international travelling to visit family, friends, conferences etc.
Apparently there are some tax advantages to residing in some Swiss cantons.
But as Tim says there aren't really any jurisdictions which offer significant advantages in physical and financial privacy over general western jurisdictions.
I've thought this one out as well. Seems to me the only answer is to keep moving, don't settle in any one country (or store your possessions in any one jurisdiction) for a lengthy stay. A couple of years max. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
Seems to me the only answer is to keep moving, don't settle in any one country (or store your possessions in any one jurisdiction) for a lengthy stay. A couple of years max.
Um, no. A couple of years would have been fine a decade ago, but these days if you piss off The People Who Must Not Be Pissed Off, extradition - from anywhere you'd remotely want to be - happens really fast. And getting faster, at least until the US sets off a backlash of sentiment among its current supporters. I guess it depends on what you're up to. If you really want to avoid attracting their attention -- then you're not posting to this list ever again and you're *definitely* not doing anything like Phil Zimmerman and several others we could name did. In short, you abandon cypherpunk ideas to all outward appearances and do not contribute anything to the freedom of our descendants. You just sit there like a nice little shitbag and quiver when they tell you to quiver, and they'll leave you alone. For now. At least until they run out of people who make them more nervous. On the other If you *do* attract their attention, then international travel will make them even more nervous about you -- and we all know (from Bell's case) what happens when Those Who Must Not Be Pissed Off get nervous about a particular person. A Kangaroo trial and a long sentence, natch. Same as anywhere else in the world. I think maybe the most effective path is a middle path; do things that help the situation of everybody, publish good subversive software if your talents run that way, and you'll definitely attract their attention. But as far as you can avoid it, never *frighten* them.... I guarantee that if Phil Zimmerman had had an impressive collection of guns or a stockpile of chemical reagents in his posession when he released PGP, he would be rotting in jail today and the rest of us wouldn't have PGP, nor its lineal descendants. Basically, you're allowed to piss them off a little, and they still need some kind of excuse to arrest you. But once you've pissed them off, any excuse will do, even (as Bell's case teaches us) the legal exercise of a constitutionally protected right. I think a lot of international travel would be more likely to give them the excuse they need to arrest you, if they were looking for one, than it would do to keep them off your back. And when you go travelling internationally, the opportunities for setups of various types multiply exponentially. What if somebody blackbags your luggage and a pound of dope shows up in turkish customs? Now add in a hefty bribe to the judge in the case and your innocent ass can be sitting in jail in Turkey for decades at no PR cost to the USA. Bear "I used to feel like a flea on the back of a dinosaur -- But lately, I've felt that that may have been a misassessment. Maybe I'm more like a small, yapping poodle on the back of a dinosaur...." -- Philip Zimmerman (paraphrased no doubt by my faulty memory)
On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 08:50:46PM -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote:
descendants. Basically, you're allowed to piss them off a little, and they still need some kind of excuse to arrest you. But once you've pissed them off, any excuse will do, even (as Bell's case teaches us) the legal exercise of a constitutionally protected right.
At the risk of going against cypherpunkconvntionalwisdom, or what passes for it, I would be wary of using the Bell case as an example of a typical prosecution. First, Bell was so terribly unlikeable as a defendant that it's a wonder that he even got the jury to not convict on all counts. Second, he was loopy, whether for effect or for real, when accusing his attorney of making death threats against him and family. Third, he didn't just spew opinions on a mailing list -- he let all the Feds he could know that he was willing to devote his life to bringing them down. Fourth, there's the home addresses and "Say goodnight to Joshua" thang that put the jury over the edge. This is not to say that his prosecution was justified, that the law he was charged with violating is constitutional, that the Feds acted reasonably, or that his conviction is appropriate. But even among cypherpunks, Bell is an outlier. -Declan
Bull. But to specifics... On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
Seems to me the only answer is to keep moving, don't settle in any one country (or store your possessions in any one jurisdiction) for a lengthy stay. A couple of years max.
Um, no. A couple of years would have been fine a decade ago, but these days if you piss off The People Who Must Not Be Pissed Off, extradition - from anywhere you'd remotely want to be - happens really fast.
Is the point to live your life or piss people off with impunity? If it's the latter then there is no hope for you because wherever you go you're going to piss the 'man' off. Trying to cover this up (a social pathology) with some lame ass excuse that you're just trying to get by won't cut the mustard. That's not indivuality, nor is it social responsibility. It's just plain mean and self-absorbed. However, if you're goal is to do what you want to do and not piss people off then moving around every couple of years is a viable strategy. By the time anyone figures out what it is you're doing, and get's pissed off you're already gone. In addition, if you're smart anonymity will prevent any 1-1 association (rather cypherpunkish) simply because you won't go around bragging about what a bad ass you are. Somehow I don't think 'cypherpunk' equals 'egotist' or 'rampant self promotion'.
And getting faster, at least until the US sets off a backlash of sentiment among its current supporters.
I guess it depends on what you're up to. If you really want to avoid attracting their attention -- then you're not posting to this list ever again and you're *definitely* not doing anything like Phil Zimmerman and several others we could name did.
Maybe, but then again we'll never know since Phil did it in the US and chose to live here. What happened to him actually is a good example of how not to do something like that. He'd been better served writing the software here but releasing it anonymously over-seas. He made a tactical error in that he not only wanted to help people but wanted credit for it also. Greed will get you killed.
In short, you abandon cypherpunk ideas to all outward appearances and do not contribute anything to the freedom of our descendants. You just sit there like a nice little shitbag and quiver when they tell you to quiver, and they'll leave you alone. For now. At least until they run out of people who make them more nervous.
You're lack of imagination is in no way a boundary condition on mine. This omnipotent and omnipresent 'they' you speak of simply doesn't exist in the context you claim. If I were to live in England for a couple of years writing some nifty anonymity code, or perhaps in some less 'legaly diligant' clime for some more 'invasive' goal then it would only make sense to execute in a different place. Anonymity is likely to be much easier to manage in such an environment as well.
On the other If you *do* attract their attention, then international travel will make them even more nervous about you -- and we all know (from Bell's case) what happens when Those Who Must Not Be Pissed Off get nervous about a particular person. A Kangaroo trial and a long sentence, natch. Same as anywhere else in the world.
If you do attract their attention you've already failed. Bell's case is not an acceptable example for a variety of reasons.
attract their attention. But as far as you can avoid it, never *frighten* them....
They're inherently frightened, it's only a question of what now...
I guarantee that if Phil Zimmerman had had an impressive collection of guns or a stockpile of chemical reagents in his posession when he released PGP, he would be rotting in jail today and the rest of us wouldn't have PGP, nor its lineal descendants.
He should have released PGP anonymously. It would not have been a difficult proposition. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
At 7:59 PM -0400 7/10/01, Adam Back wrote:
I was thinking online obscurity (nyms, pseudonymous web pages etc) coupled with a low tax jurisdiction like Anguilla wouldn't be one interesting combination.
But there are plenty of disadvantages too -- limited amenities - shops, computer parts, the advantages being within reasonable travelling distance of a large western city affords. The inconvenience and cost of travelling from a remote locale such as Anguilla if you do much international travelling to visit family, friends, conferences etc.
Apparently there are some tax advantages to residing in some Swiss cantons.
But as Tim says there aren't really any jurisdictions which offer significant advantages in physical and financial privacy over general western jurisdictions.
I wasn't singling out Anguilla, just noting it is hardly a libertarian paradise. Having spent a week in Nassau in 1980, that's a close as I want to come to moving to the Bahamas or places like that. (The sandy beaches were O.K., but not significantly better than here in Carmel--though the water's warm enough to snorkel and scuba dive in. But the crimes by blacks against whites were horrific: living in a walled compound on Paradise Island or on one of the outlying islands was the only hope a white man had.) The "nym" approach to online obscurity is hardly sufficient, Adam. After all, I don't want to face hanging for having a firearm. Or 5 years in the local jail for having a copy of "Penthouse." Or deportation for offending the Seven Families. These little Carribean potentates are far, far, far worse than what we face in the U.S. But enough about Anguilla, Nevis, St. Barts, all of the other little rocks on the Caribbean. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay@got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
At 06:33 PM 7/10/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
These little Carribean potentates are far, far, far worse than what we face in the U.S.
The sad truth is that if you're a gun owner and like to have variety in what you collect, no "western democracy" is going to be a better fit than the U.S. Even some smaller countries that should know better (or not) are lining up behind the anti-gun nations, as we can see this week at the U.N. summit.
But enough about Anguilla, Nevis, St. Barts, all of the other little rocks on the Caribbean.
Some may be better than others. Bermuda (not truly in the Carribbean) is more British and less strained in terms of race relations. Aruba is also better than others. But even with the problems in modern America, we still have a stronger commitment to what remains of civil liberty. Which may not be saying much. -Declan
How about Costa Rica? I met some people from there who said the government there was very cool, no problems. OTOH, anyplace you go that you're a foreigner, you always stand out. But Costa Rica has always attracted me, both politically and geographically, because the upland weather is quite cool, like the political climate. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 hseaver@cybershamanix.com Home 920-233-5820 hseaver@ameritech.net
participants (10)
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A. Melon -
Adam Back -
Declan McCullagh -
Harmon Seaver -
Jim Choate -
Ken Brown -
ming -
Ray Dillinger -
Sandy Sandfort -
Tim May