Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )
David Honig <honig@sprynet.com> wrote :
Personally I'd prefer a non-colonial foreign policy that doesn't generate such antipathy.
The message of the WTC is this: regular ole' non-mil sheeple *are* held responsible for the actions of their government. *Even* in the US. What a concept. I suppose the sheeple in Dresden (etc.) know what that's like.
When the US populations' endocrines settle down, maybe they'll clue in to cause and effect. Doubt it. Getting involved in others' family feuds is just too much fun.
What was it General Washington said about foreign entanglements? I'd tattoo it onto every congressvermin's forehead.
Not that it isn't a good direction to head but I wonder what your time-scale is for the conversion of a society that cannot survive without an influx of inexpensive resources from foreign sources into something less colonial? It has to be decades at a minimum. In the meantime how do we deal with the Islamic Fundamentalist nutters? Or our own Christian Fundamentalist nutters for that matter. I don't want to hear about good and evil, Christian vs. Muslim, True faiths vs. ersatz faiths or right vs. wrong. The crew that did the WTC is dangerous. Those who are sending anthrax through the mails are dangerous. Near-term solutions are called for. I would like to see solutions that don't involve further trashing of our civil rights but I have no compassion for the terrorists or freedom fighters or whatever the hell you want to call them. Mike
At 10:11 AM 10/24/01 -0700, mmotyka@lsil.com wrote:
David Honig <honig@sprynet.com> wrote :
Personally I'd prefer a non-colonial foreign policy that doesn't generate such antipathy.
The message of the WTC is this: regular ole' non-mil sheeple *are* held responsible for the actions of their government. *Even* in the US. What a concept. I suppose the sheeple in Dresden (etc.) know what that's like.
When the US populations' endocrines settle down, maybe they'll clue in to cause and effect. Doubt it. Getting involved in others' family feuds is
just
too much fun.
What was it General Washington said about foreign entanglements? I'd tattoo it onto every congressvermin's forehead.
Not that it isn't a good direction to head but I wonder what your time-scale is for the conversion of a society that cannot survive without an influx of inexpensive resources from foreign sources into something less colonial? It has to be decades at a minimum.
Tomorrow. No USG money, no USG troops outside the US.
In the meantime how do we deal with the Islamic Fundamentalist nutters?
We have an immediate obligation to fight back. If we can find something to hit. This is not an exception to the above withdrawl --this is striking back, to maintain our reputation, only. But we can certainly let the foreign tyrants whom we currently defend, at our peril (and frankly disgrace), fend for themselves. Let *their* oppressed earn *their* freedom. Let US citizens go over and fight if they want to, as private citizens, as many did during e.g., the spanish civil war. But as a government do not engage in foreign entanglements. Because karma happens. Behavior has consequences. Otherwise, sheeple will continue to earn sheeps' disease --anthrax, etc. As you say, the US is far too vulnerable, and will shut down ---which is one of the Jihad's goals. Part of 'getting our attention'.
Or our own Christian Fundamentalist nutters for that matter. I don't want to hear about good and evil, Christian vs. Muslim, True faiths vs. ersatz faiths or right vs. wrong.
But you *will* when the interventionists gripe about how oppressed the poor inhabitants are, and "shouldn't we intervene?". Of course the interventionists want to spend *your* money and your offspring pursuing *their* grand plans. Which look much like colonialism and culture war from the other side. The crew that did the WTC is
dangerous. Those who are sending anthrax through the mails are dangerous.
No argument there. Near-term solutions are called for. I would like to see
solutions that don't involve further trashing of our civil rights but I have no compassion for the terrorists or freedom fighters or whatever the hell you want to call them.
Mike
I'm waiting for some asian caucus to declare that, given the circumstances, all arabs should be sent to Nevada. ..... If you look up "Schelling points" you find Tim's http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1996.07.25-1996.07.31/msg00032.html metaphor about interfering with another family because you disapprove of how they raise their children. Basically the Soviet Union "died and left US boss" of the neighborhood. But the US, playing self-appointed cop, has made lots of enemies; and even cops must sleep. The sleeping giant finds that someone has tried to burn his house down while he sleeps. The giant needs to hit back, then stop accumulating enemies. Free trade does not make enemies. Government intervention does. Funny how consensual acts are ok and nonconsensual ones not. ... Mind you, I believe in right and wrong -hell, I quote Rand- and I'd be happy forcing all the tyrant-governments (from the French, English, Mexican, etc. to the Saudis) to accept the US constitution, *all of it*, or else. But that's questionable and going to create enemies. If someone did that to you, you might take up arms too (or planes, or spores, given the asymmetry). Best to stay out of their family feuds (Yugoslavia, Palestine, Ireland, Spain, africa, etc.) and don't force them to "do it our way or else" --even though our way is the right way. Lead by example. Not intervention. ... To those who gripe we need the oil (or other resources): ask the families of the WTC corpses if doubled gas prices (for a few years until a safer supply rises) are worth it.
On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 12:01 PM, David Honig wrote: Many excellent points... ...
If you look up "Schelling points" you find Tim's http://www.inet- one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1996.07.25-1996.07.31/msg00032.html metaphor about interfering with another family because you disapprove of how they raise their children. Basically the Soviet Union "died and left US boss" of the neighborhood. But the US, playing self-appointed cop, has made lots of enemies; and even cops must sleep. The sleeping giant finds that someone has tried to burn his house down while he sleeps. The giant needs to hit back, then stop accumulating enemies.
And my meta-Schelling point was actually that the concept of a Schelling point is itself a Schelling point: many people, even animals, come to the independent conclusion that figuring out where the Schelling points are is a good survival strategy. (Or something like this....you get the drift.) Free societies operate mainly on the basis of local, mutually agreed-upon transactions. Organized crime usually pops up when some bunch of distant thugs sets up rules which distort these mutually agreed-upon transactions. The rise of the Mob during Prohibititon is a perfect example, oft-discussed. The rise of many crime units, including government crime operations, during the War on Some Drugs in the past 35 years is another perfect example.
... To those who gripe we need the oil (or other resources): ask the families of the WTC corpses if doubled gas prices (for a few years until a safer supply rises) are worth it.
Even the Gulf War is a good example of this. There is no reason to believe Saddam Hussein would have "cut off the oil." Just the opposite, in fact. There is every reason to believe that a mostly modern society like Iraq (as of 1990) would have had far more pressures to pump oil than a small clique of Bedouin thieves would have to do so. Evidence is strong that Iraq would have flooded the markets with oil. I'm not defending Saddam as a Good Guy, just saying vital national interests were not involved. By getting into these "foreign entanglements," things have gotten much worse. --Tim May, Occupied America "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.
participants (3)
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David Honig -
mmotyka＠lsil.com -
Tim May