Re: Spooky noises and things that go bump in the night
-- On Monday, January 7, 2002, at 04:11 PM, Tim May wrote:
I think it is a moral necessity to kill anyone trying to steal anything (beyond the utterly trivial or confusable, e.g., one should not kill someone picking up a toy left out in the yard...might be a mistake, he might be trying to return it, etc.). Someone stealing a television or PC has certainly earned killing.
On Monday, January 7, 2002, at 12:39 AM, Petro wrote:
Given the legal hassle that one will face if one does that, it's just not worth it.
Legal hassle depends on where you live. Most places, provided the burglar is inside, no problem. If lives long enough to get outside, drag the body back inside, and rinse away the blood. Police will not be interested in finding the evidence that he made it outside. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG E1QLOofqyQDU745GEYXnEjkJRYfQmWRNTRsaZ+r1 42qQfWDaRcdE/86FWYa9Ztcw4ZudSrK/aTOeSGAu/
On Thursday 10 January 2002 10:51 pm, jamesd@echeque.com wrote:
Legal hassle depends on where you live. Most places, provided the burglar is inside, no problem. If lives long enough to get outside, drag the body back inside, and rinse away the blood. Police will not be interested in finding the evidence that he made it outside.
In Texas deadly force is legally justified to prevent the immenent commission of burglary. This means you can shoot if someone is getting ready to break in. You don't have to wait until they are inside. The Texas penal code requires that you retreat instead of using deadly force if you have the option unless you are using deadly force against someone who is unlawfully entering your habitation. In that case you don't have to retreat even if you can. Some states require you to retreat even if you are in your home if you can. It is a myth that if someone is crawling through your window and he falls outside after you shoot him that you need to pull the body inside. You are foolish if you think that a forensic team can't tell how the shooting took place and that the body was moved. Any jurisdiction that will prosecute and convict someone because the body of a person attempting burglary happens to be on the outside instead of the inside will certainly prosecute and get a conviction for tampering with the evidence. Tampering with the evidence will also be considered evidence of guilt of murder rather than self defense.
On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, david wrote:
On Thursday 10 January 2002 10:51 pm, jamesd@echeque.com wrote:
Legal hassle depends on where you live. Most places, provided the burglar is inside, no problem. If lives long enough to get outside, drag the body back inside, and rinse away the blood. Police will not be interested in finding the evidence that he made it outside.
In Texas deadly force is legally justified to prevent the immenent commission of burglary.
Actually it isn't.
This means you can shoot if someone is getting ready to break in. You don't have to wait until they are inside.
Actualy they only time you can shoot somebody like this is AFTER DARK, there are other caviats as well.
The Texas penal code requires that you retreat instead of using deadly force if you have the option unless you are using deadly force against someone who is unlawfully entering your habitation. In that case you don't have to retreat even if you can.
Better check that one again. Can't booby trap either. I've been burglarized three times. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Friday 11 January 2002 07:34 am, Jim Choate wrote:
In Texas deadly force is legally justified to prevent the imminent commission of burglary.
Actually it isn't.
This means you can shoot if someone is getting ready to break in. You don't have to wait until they are inside.
Actualy they only time you can shoot somebody like this is AFTER DARK, there are other caviats as well.
If you will reread your own link to the Penal code you see that only theft and criminal mischief have the nighttime stipulation. Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property: ~ ~ (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and ~ ~ (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary: ~ ~ ~ (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or ~ ~ ~ (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and ~ ~ (3) he reasonably believes that: ~ ~ ~ (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or ~ ~ ~ (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.
The Texas penal code requires that you retreat instead of using deadly force if you have the option unless you are using deadly force against someone who is unlawfully entering your habitation. In that case you don't have to retreat even if you can.
Better check that one again.
I've been burglarized three times.
The following statute is the one that says you have to retreat unless you are at home. I am a Texas Department of Public Safety certified Concealed Handgun License instructor. Commander Rodriquez, the DPS use of force instructor explained that "immenent commision" means someone is getting ready to do something. The statutes say that you have to have a reasonable belief that someone is about to commit one of the above crimes and that deadly force is necessary to prevent it. You don't even have to be right. You just have to be able to explain to a jury why you belief was reaonable. Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another: ~ ~ (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; ~ ~ (2) if a reasonable person in the actor's situation would not have retreated; and ~ ~ (3) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary: ~ ~ ~ (A) to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or ~ ~ ~ (B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery. ~ (b) [added 9/1/95] The requirement imposed by Subsection (a)(2) does not apply to an actor who uses force against a person who is at the time of the use of force committing an offense of unlawful entry in the habitation of the actor.
Can't booby trap either.
The following statute says that you can install devices if they don't cause death or serious bodily injury. Punji sticks are verboten. Rigged pepper spray dispensing devices are not. Sec. 9.44. USE OF DEVICE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. The justification afforded by Sections 9.41 and 9.43 applies to the use of a device to protect land or tangible, movable property if: ~ ~ (1) the device is not designed to cause, or known by the actor to create a substantial risk of causing, death or serious bodily injury; and ~ ~ (2) use of the device is reasonable under all the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be when he installs the device. David Neilson
On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, david wrote:
On Friday 11 January 2002 07:34 am, Jim Choate wrote:
In Texas deadly force is legally justified to prevent the imminent commission of burglary.
Actually it isn't.
This means you can shoot if someone is getting ready to break in. You don't have to wait until they are inside.
Actualy they only time you can shoot somebody like this is AFTER DARK, there are other caviats as well.
If you will reread your own link to the Penal code you see that only theft and criminal mischief have the nighttime stipulation.
I'll be happy to let you talk to my lawyer (he used to be an Asst. Attorney General) and you can call APD directly if you'd like. They DO include burglary with respect to using deadly force. In fact, in say a case like somebody breaking into your car and stealing CD's, to be legally protected you MUST see them with your property, simple 'belief' is not enough. Of course there is nothing to stop you from planting between the shooting and the arrival of your local LEA.
The following statute is the one that says you have to retreat unless you are at home. I am a Texas Department of Public Safety certified Concealed Handgun License instructor.
Big fucking deal. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Friday 11 January 2002 04:00 pm, Jim Choate wrote:
I'll be happy to let you talk to my lawyer (he used to be an Asst. Attorney General) and you can call APD directly if you'd like. They DO include burglary with respect to using deadly force. In fact, in say a case like somebody breaking into your car and stealing CD's, to be legally protected you MUST see them with your property, simple 'belief' is not enough. Of course there is nothing to stop you from planting between the shooting and the arrival of your local LEA.
The following statute is the one that says you have to retreat unless you are at home. I am a Texas Department of Public Safety certified Concealed Handgun License instructor.
Big fucking deal.
I don't need or want to talk to your attorney. But you should at least read and try to understand the statutes that you link to and make reference to. The big fucking deal is I have attended four of DPS's intructor classes where their attorneys and instructors explain the use of force laws to us in the manner they want them passed on to the public. I do not pass on uninformed opinions on topics I am not qualified to comment on. David Neilson
On Thursday, January 10, 2002, at 08:51 PM, jamesd@echeque.com wrote:
On Monday, January 7, 2002, at 04:11 PM, Tim May wrote:
I think it is a moral necessity to kill anyone trying to steal anything (beyond the utterly trivial or confusable, e.g., one should not kill someone picking up a toy left out in the yard...might be a mistake, he might be trying to return it, etc.). Someone stealing a television or PC has certainly earned killing. On Monday, January 7, 2002, at 12:39 AM, Petro wrote: Given the legal hassle that one will face if one does that, it's just not worth it.
Legal hassle depends on where you live. Most places, provided the burglar is inside, no problem. If lives long
No, it doesn't. In the places where most people live, if you shoot a burglar in your home, you *will* call your lawyer if you've got half a brain in your head (talk to the cops about a shooting *without* one? Are you nuts?), you will probably go downtown, at least to get booked, and you might spend some time (measured in hours) behind bars. You've just shot (and if you're any good killed) someone--the fourth worst crime in the books (after using ethnic slurs, making sexist comments, and being mean to poor people by wanting to keep your hard earned money)--unless the police know you, they are likely to do it just to make sure you're not the burglar who got the drop on the home owner. Then there is the family of the deceased. You're a big fat target for a civil suit, and if the family cannot afford a lawyer, one will be appointed to them by the Brady Campaign against Civil Rights.
enough to get outside, drag the body back inside, and rinse away the blood. Police will not be interested in finding the evidence that he made it outside.
Where do you live that the cops are that stupid and lazy? -- "Those without creative minds and agile fingers are of course welcome to hurry up with my fries. And they'll probably use a GUI to take my order, too." - Tom Christiansen
IANAL... On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, david wrote:
I don't need or want to talk to your attorney. But you should at least read and try to understand the statutes that you link to and make reference to.
I do, I also understand the sorts of questions that a DA will ask when they decide what charges to press. And a simple broad daylight B&E will not pass muster for deadly force in Texas. A simple trespass won't qualify. You simply can't go around shooting people you lure onto your property in Texas.
The big fucking deal is I have attended four of DPS's intructor classes where their attorneys and instructors explain the use of force laws to us in the manner they want them passed on to the public. I do not pass on uninformed opinions on topics I am not qualified to comment on.
And I am absolutely certain they did NOT tell you or anyone else that by simply finding a person in your home you have license to shoot on site. That simply isn't the case in this state. The 'at night' stipulation to escalated use of force is with respect to the 'identify & recover' clause(s). Unless you can demonstrate some clear threat at the time of the shooting, it being nite is about your only hope to escape some sort of charge (there's that 'other means' with respect to causing the crime to stop as well). DA's know there are a passle of crazies out there with itchy fingers. As I understand it, at least urban legend wise, Texas is the 7'th largest armed population in the world...;) This is from discussion with APD on three seperate 1st person instances and several discussions with a lawyer several years ago (I had this crazy idea of a IR directed gun mount). I also know of a couple of cases in the last few years where the 'at night' stipulation was critical. There was 10 or so years ago where a girl shot a peeping tom just after dusk. She saw him looking through the window. Got her gun and went outside and shot him. The major issue with the grand jury refusing to indite had to do with it being at nite. It's also worth noting that Texas does not consider breaking into a car burglary. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Friday 11 January 2002 08:31 pm, Jim Choate wrote:
You simply can't go around shooting people you lure onto your property in Texas.
I certainly never said anything like that. If you are going to put words in my mouth then you don't need me to carry on. Knock yourself out. David Neilson
-- On 10 Jan 2002, at 23:46, david wrote:
Any jurisdiction that will prosecute and convict someone because the body of a person attempting burglary happens to be on the outside instead of the inside will certainly prosecute and get a conviction for tampering with the evidence. Tampering with the evidence will also be considered evidence of guilt of murder rather than self defense.
Only if there is a doughnut shop near your house. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG yTozx70ND42Y5t2brExEdi+tAzETMN2RYRg+kyGV 4/72HlI9tP4R0mzDOYBd7kZz5X7q4EuiOe9GWCC/b
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