Everyone knows it is a bad idea to try and board a plane carrying a box cutter, a flight manual written in Arabic, or a sack full of mysterious white powder. But with ultra-tightened airport security, a book could also prevent you from boarding that plane. No kidding. It happened just last week in Philadelphia. http://cgi.newcity.com/exitlog/frameset.php?close=http://www.citypaper.net/articles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml&back=http://www.newcity.com steve
I sincerely hope this guy sues these people. Are the Guard troops protected from lawsuits? People this stupid shouldn't be allowed out without a keeper, let alone be running around with guns. Steve Schear wrote:
Everyone knows it is a bad idea to try and board a plane carrying a box cutter, a flight manual written in Arabic, or a sack full of mysterious white powder. But with ultra-tightened airport security, a book could also prevent you from boarding that plane.
No kidding. It happened just last week in Philadelphia.
steve
-- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver@cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
Sometime around 02:50 PM 10/18/2001 -0700, Steve Schear opined thusly:
Does anyone know the legal issues surrounding the act of taking a pocket tape recorder and recording at least my side of this sort of transaction? I know what the likely result would be; I wondered if I had any obligation not to record anything I might happen to say while interacting with airport authorities. -j
On Thu, 18 Oct 2001, Jamie Lawrence wrote:
Does anyone know the legal issues surrounding the act of taking a pocket tape recorder and recording at least my side of this sort of transaction?
There's actually two questions implied here: (1) What are the _legal_ implications? The answer will depend on whe the event(s) take place; (2) Realistically, what can you expect? I can't address number 1 directly, but I can address number two from first hand experience. In 1983 I was questioned by a (New York) police officer, who interrupted my quite open and obvious dictation into a hand held microcassette recorder to do it. Since he saw the thing in my hand, and did not ask me to turn it off, I let it run during what was essentially a "Terry Stop". When the Terry stop escalated, and I was ordered to follow the officer for more questioning, I asked him, while holding out the recorder for the answer, whether I was under arrest. Answer: no. Followed by "Am I free to go?". Answer no. "Sir, I believe these two conditions are mutually exclusive: either I am under arrest, or I am free to go. As I have things to do, I need to know which it is, so that I may either go do them, or call my attorney to join us". My reward was a crushed microcassette recorder, a "missing" cassette (he claimed the recorder was both damaged and empty at the time he first encountered it), and an arrest (and conviction no less!). On the way to central booking, he helped himself to my pocket change to pay for the coffee and doughnuts for him and his three buddies (they actually stopped en-route, leaving me cuffed in the car alone for about 20 minutes). So, in a nutshell, expect that the recorder will be "empty", and quite damaged when/if it is ever returned to you (which mine wasn't, even after multiple applications). -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like we need to be dictating into cellphones, with remote recording! Marc de Piolenc measl@mfn.org wrote:
When the Terry stop escalated, and I was ordered to follow the officer for more questioning, I asked him, while holding out the recorder for the answer, whether I was under arrest. Answer: no. Followed by "Am I free to go?". Answer no. "Sir, I believe these two conditions are mutually exclusive: either I am under arrest, or I am free to go. As I have things to do, I need to know which it is, so that I may either go do them, or call my attorney to join us".
My reward was a crushed microcassette recorder, a "missing" cassette (he claimed the recorder was both damaged and empty at the time he first encountered it), and an arrest (and conviction no less!).
On Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:49:28 +0800 "F. Marc de Piolenc" <piolenc@mozcom.com> wrote:
Sounds like we need to be dictating into cellphones, with remote recording!
fishing through wreckage for a crumpled black box recorder seems pretty old fashioned, too.
My reward was a crushed microcassette recorder, a "missing" cassette (he claimed the recorder was both damaged and empty at the time he first encountered it), and an arrest (and conviction no less!).
At 01:49 PM 10/19/01 -1000, cpaul wrote:
On Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:49:28 +0800 "F. Marc de Piolenc" <piolenc@mozcom.com> wrote:
Sounds like we need to be dictating into cellphones, with remote recording!
fishing through wreckage for a crumpled black box recorder seems pretty old fashioned, too.
30K planes in the air before; maybe 20K now (or 30K 2/3rds full..). Lots of data from mobile senders. [Yes, some of the 30K are too small to be interesting.] Though now perhaps you could do it by piggybacking on the cellphone mesh? Cheaper than satellite. (Though what about hitting multiple cells, the non-EMI reason for not using cells on planes) N years ago a robust tape recorder was the best you could do; N/2 years ago a solid state recorder became reasonable. For some value of N. Now RF (digitally encoded, bursty?) is feasible.
On Thursday, October 18, 2001, at 05:59 PM, measl@mfn.org wrote:
In 1983 I was questioned by a (New York) police officer, who interrupted my quite open and obvious dictation into a hand held microcassette recorder to do it. Since he saw the thing in my hand, and did not ask me to turn it off, I let it run during what was essentially a "Terry Stop".
When the Terry stop escalated, and I was ordered to follow the officer for more questioning, I asked him, while holding out the recorder for the answer, whether I was under arrest. Answer: no. Followed by "Am I free to go?". Answer no. "Sir, I believe these two conditions are mutually exclusive: either I am under arrest, or I am free to go. As I have things to do, I need to know which it is, so that I may either go do them, or call my attorney to join us".
My reward was a crushed microcassette recorder, a "missing" cassette (he claimed the recorder was both damaged and empty at the time he first encountered it), and an arrest (and conviction no less!).
On the way to central booking, he helped himself to my pocket change to pay for the coffee and doughnuts for him and his three buddies (they actually stopped en-route, leaving me cuffed in the car alone for about 20 minutes).
He earned killing. You would be justified in arranging his death, if this really happened. If this really happened and you have not yet taken him out with a good rifle, why not? (I realize you cannot say one way or the other whether you delivered justice to this (alleged) miscreant, but my point remains.) Personally, I doubt your story. Someone who does what you say was done to you has clearly earned killing. --Tim May
On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:
Personally, I doubt your story. Someone who does what you say was done to you has clearly earned killing.
While I agree with your assessment that he has "earned killing", I do not see how my failure to kill him earns doubt - one does not necessarily follow the other (in the real world anyway - the "ideal" world is something completely different). I did not, and likely will never have the opportunity to kill the bastard. Nevertheless, this was a very radicalizing event in my life, and was the foundation upon which many of my future "incidents" were based. In a way, the guy did me a favor: he permanently opened my eyes to the Real World. His reward, and society's reward, is that I am now a fervently anti-government/anti-LEO prick, who will never again work within the system (or for that matter, do anything to assist it in any way, shape, or form). I firmly believe that he and his ilk will get the killing they so richly deserve when enough people finally wake up and form a [political] critical mass. Until then, I choose not to take the lone-gunman approach - yes, I am a pussy :-(
--Tim May
-- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't do it in Massachusetts. They consider it wiretapping. Most states aren't so funny. But why take it out. Leave it in your pocket (save when clearing the metal detector, of ocurse). DCF At 03:48 PM 10/18/01 -0700, Jamie Lawrence wrote:
Sometime around 02:50 PM 10/18/2001 -0700, Steve Schear opined thusly:
http://cgi.newcity.com/exitlog/frameset.php?close=http://www.citypaper.ne t/articles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml&back=http://www.newcity.com
Does anyone know the legal issues surrounding the act of taking a pocket tape recorder and recording at least my side of this sort of transaction?
I know what the likely result would be; I wondered if I had any obligation not to record anything I might happen to say while interacting with airport authorities.
-j
It's dodgy. I wish I could quote chapter and verse, but I don't recall. The closest you could come and /maybe/ get away with it, would be to have a cell activated and your lawyer on the line. LE would still cop a major attitude. They DO NOT like being documented. They have some laws or regulations backing them up on it as well. I looked into this about 5 years ago when a neighboring state was starting to get into the "Papers Please, Ausweiss Controll Bitte" mind set in their "war on drugs". The thought was for me, a clean for many years fellow, to drive a profilable vehicle in profilable manner, while wired through potential drug checkpoint areas trying to attract a bust. Our lawyer decided it was way too dodgy legally. Some folks are going to want to call bullshit on this, and I welcome it. I thought at the time, I could record, video tape, transmit pretty much whatever I wanted. Turned out that there are special "things" involved with surveilling the surveillers. On Thu, 18 Oct 2001, Jamie Lawrence wrote:
Sometime around 02:50 PM 10/18/2001 -0700, Steve Schear opined thusly:
Does anyone know the legal issues surrounding the act of taking a pocket tape recorder and recording at least my side of this sort of transaction?
I know what the likely result would be; I wondered if I had any obligation not to record anything I might happen to say while interacting with airport authorities.
-j
About that book: :Everyone knows it is a bad idea to try and board a plane carrying a box :cutter, a flight manual written in Arabic, or a sack full of mysterious :white powder. But with ultra-tightened airport security, a book could also :prevent you from boarding that plane. --------------- With enough examples like these collected in your Noggin database, you develop the ability to measure degrees of intelligence, even without any mechanical high-tech gear or scientifically conducted testing. Very useful, especially for self-defense & preservation, especially in Times Like These with people like those. .. Blanc
On Thu, 18 Oct 2001, Steve Schear wrote:
Everyone knows it is a bad idea to try and board a plane carrying a box cutter, a flight manual written in Arabic, or a sack full of mysterious white powder. But with ultra-tightened airport security, a book could also prevent you from boarding that plane.
No kidding. It happened just last week in Philadelphia.
steve
Wow! Ed Abby, rest his ill-tempered soul, would be very proud.
At 06:16 AM 10/19/01 -0400, cubic-dog wrote:
Wow!
Ed Abby, rest his ill-tempered soul, would be very proud.
Abbey would be considered the Osama of an Official Terrorist Group, his phone and all his relatives' bugged, his assets seized, and if they could find him, he'd be disappeared.
participants (11)
-
Blanc -
cpaul -
cubic-dog -
David Honig -
Duncan Frissell -
F. Marc de Piolenc -
Harmon Seaver -
Jamie Lawrence -
measl＠mfn.org -
Steve Schear -
Tim May