Some observations on the nouns "Patriot", and "American" etc as they relate to current events. I'm not American. I'm dual-national British/Swiss, I've lived in Britain, Scotland, Canada and now the US. But I have not noticed anyone in Britain, or British press discussing "un-British" behavior, or putting down anyone attempting to ask questions as "un-patriotic". (Ditto for the other countries). Press coverage of Iraq is varyingly biased in those countries (ridiculously so in the US, somewhat in the UK due to their involvement). Opinion in the UK is split, but I don't see those on the pro-side of the fence arguing that those arguing against are unpatriotic or anything. They're just arguing too and fro about issues. Politicians were arguing on both sides and getting some air time. But in the US the issues are buried, it's difficult for detractors of the government line to be heard without getting shouted down as unpatriotic or unamerican. So I guess the American-way used to stand for something -- beliefs in freedoms etc., and that one symbol used historically to express support of those freedoms was the US flag. So I'm supposing this is the historic reason people fly flags, on their cars, houses, businesses etc. (A practice virtually non-existant in any other country I've lived in, or travelled to). But today it seems that the words Patriotic and American (in their negative forms un-American and un-patriotic as) have become sullied and perverted and essentially synonymous with: - unquestioning acceptance of the party line, of the military news-management - put down and outright aggression against anyone who dares to think for themselves, to ask critical questions, to express interest in the truth, or express any interest in hearing both sides of an argument In Britain the Union Jack flag to some extent got co-opted by racist political groups such as the National Front, British National Party. At least to the extent that wearing a t-shirt with a union jack on it might not convey the message you hoped -- particularly if you have a skin-head haircut. In a similar way to me at least the US flag is heading the same way with (different but negative) connotations of blind adherence to the party line. To me as a non-American all these flags fluttering as a symbol of the governmental and military groups who are currently eroding rights and freedoms in the US feels bizarre. The same rights and freedoms that apparently the same flag used to stand for. I guess there are some similarities with the negative cooption of the Union Jack symbol, but I'm wondering if in the US most of the flag flying population even noticed the switcheroo in connotation. Flag flying seems to be more popular than ever. Personally I'm somewhat on the fence about whether the US/British attack on Iraq will end up being a net positive or negative thing for world stability and safety. It was an illegal first strike action against a sovreign country, and it was a highly interventionist activity, but the outcome is less clearly bad though of course we don't know yet what the long term side-effects will be. Anyway I never liked patriotism. What's important in my book is thinking for yourself, thinking critically and forming your own opinions. The governments and prominent political parties in most western democracies are sleaze pits deserving only of contempt. And they are the entities most closely associated with and in control of the actions of a country on any large scale in the international arena. So to me patriotism was always synonymous with support for this system. A corrupt political system which needs to be replaced with anarcho-capitalism for things to get better. Adam
On Wed, 30 Apr 2003, Adam Back wrote:
So I guess the American-way used to stand for something -- beliefs in freedoms etc., and that one symbol used historically to express support of those freedoms was the US flag. So I'm supposing this is the historic reason people fly flags, on their cars, houses, businesses etc. (A practice virtually non-existant in any other country I've lived in, or travelled to).
I live in Bristol, in the west of England. Despite what you say, British and English flags are very common indeed. They fly on cars, are displayed on the walls in pubs, appear on clothing, and even on people's faces -- particularly before sporting events. Because Bristol is just across the river from Wales, we also see a LOT of Welsh dragons. Mind you, flags have been commonly and prominently displayed in most of the countries I have lived in (including Japan, India, and Pakistan as well as the United States) and travelled through (France, for example). And we mustn't forget the republican flags on display all over Belfast. -- Jim Dixon jdd@dixons.org tel +44 117 982 0786 mobile +44 797 373 7881
On Tuesday, April 29, 2003, at 11:17 PM, Adam Back wrote:
Some observations on the nouns "Patriot", and "American" etc as they relate to current events.
I'm not American. I'm dual-national British/Swiss, I've lived in Britain, Scotland, Canada and now the US. But I have not noticed anyone in Britain, or British press discussing "un-British" behavior, or putting down anyone attempting to ask questions as "un-patriotic".
Part of the problem has been the longer time it takes the Brits to establish what is "un-British." It takes more time for marching orders to propagate from Washington to London, so there's this delay. And sometimes the signals with Washington get crossed.
(Ditto for the other countries). Press coverage of Iraq is varyingly biased in those countries (ridiculously so in the US, somewhat in the UK due to their involvement). Opinion in the UK is split, but I don't see those on the pro-side of the fence arguing that those arguing against are unpatriotic or anything.
A quick search of the news with Google turns up articles like this one: http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2425843a12,00.html "Galloway, a member of Prime Minister Tony Blair's ruling Labour Party, is currently at his holiday home in Portugal writing a book about the Iraq war. He has issued a string of forceful denials from there. Labour Party officials are already examining controversial remarks by Galloway who called Blair and President George W Bush "wolves" for attacking Iraq. The Scottish MP, a constant target of tabloid attacks, has been dubbed MP for Baghdad Central for his opposition to the Iraq war." --end excerpt-- It seems to me that the tabloids and others calling someone "MP for Baghdad Central" is a counterexample to your claim. Of course, this isn't a survey of the _prevalence_ or _magnitude_ of the claims, but it's an example that at least some Brits on the pro-war side are using slurs about the patriotism of the opponents. Also, note that Sky News in the U.K. is part of Rupert Murdoch's empire, and Murdoch is the controlling force behind Fox. "Fair and balanced" = the most blatantly jingoistic television network visible on American t.v. Brits can be as jingoistic as Americans. Football (soccer in the States) riots are another example. --Tim May "As my father told me long ago, the objective is not to convince someone with your arguments but to provide the arguments with which he later convinces himself." -- David Friedman
On Wed, Apr 30, 2003 at 11:15:50AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
Opinion in the UK is split, but I don't see those on the pro-side of the fence arguing that those arguing against are unpatriotic or anything.
The Scottish MP, a constant target of tabloid attacks, has been dubbed MP for Baghdad Central for his opposition to the Iraq war."
--end excerpt--
It seems to me that the tabloids and others calling someone "MP for Baghdad Central" is a counterexample to your claim.
Of course, this isn't a survey of the _prevalence_ or _magnitude_ of the claims, but it's an example that at least some Brits on the pro-war side are using slurs about the patriotism of the opponents.
Yes but the tabloids are not examples of serious news sources; they are titilation and shit-stirring. They're continuously being sued for slander, fabrication of titilating though coincidentally untrue stories etc.
Also, note that Sky News in the U.K. is part of Rupert Murdoch's empire, and Murdoch is the controlling force behind Fox. "Fair and balanced" = the most blatantly jingoistic television network visible on American t.v.
I agree news is biased also. It just pisses me off to see major network news who you might (or at least the average person uninformedly does) consider to retain some level of integrity dismissing and supressing most balanced discussion on with put-downs involving "unpatriotic" and "unamerican". WTF is that? Can't they engage in discourse where evidence and logical argument are used? Similar vein is the apparent overnight animosity towards the French who happened to take a different view. It all comes down to this same blind following of leaders, and Bush's inane statements such as "if you're not for us you're against us". So now France should be boycotted because they expressed opinions not precisely aligned with US views. People are entitled to their opinion. In fact if it were not for Blair and whoever else was behind it in the UK government over-riding public sentiment, Britain would not have been involved either as public opinion in the UK was reportedly 80% against involvement prior to the invasion. In that case I suppose British exports would now also be targets for calls for boycott. I suppose I am just suprised and dismayed at the level of childish behavior but on an international policy scale. Adam
On Wed, Apr 30, 2003 at 09:54:21PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
Similar vein is the apparent overnight animosity towards the French who happened to take a different view. It all comes down to this same blind following of leaders, and Bush's inane statements such as "if
I think I'd largely agree with you about the bias in many news outlets. But as for the French: Well, a lot of Americans just don't like the French, and it has nothing to do with Bush. I took a bottle of French hard apple cider with me to a family gathering over Easter and got a round of boos for it, even though that part of the family is pretty evenly divided between GOP/Dems. -Declan
You should have asked them if they thought we should return The Statue of Liberty back to France. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :NSA got $20Bil/year |Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :and didn't stop 9-11|share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:Instead of rewarding|monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :their failures, we |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :should get refunds! |site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_@_sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Thu, 1 May 2003, Declan McCullagh wrote:
But as for the French: Well, a lot of Americans just don't like the French, and it has nothing to do with Bush. I took a bottle of French hard apple cider with me to a family gathering over Easter and got a round of boos for it, even though that part of the family is pretty evenly divided between GOP/Dems.
On Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 07:04 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote:
On Wed, Apr 30, 2003 at 09:54:21PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
Similar vein is the apparent overnight animosity towards the French who happened to take a different view. It all comes down to this same blind following of leaders, and Bush's inane statements such as "if
I think I'd largely agree with you about the bias in many news outlets.
But as for the French: Well, a lot of Americans just don't like the French, and it has nothing to do with Bush. I took a bottle of French hard apple cider with me to a family gathering over Easter and got a round of boos for it, even though that part of the family is pretty evenly divided between GOP/Dems.
I fully agree. Though I was, and am, against the war on grounds often discussed here, the French have once again behaved in a tacky way. Besides their ulterior motives (loans to Saddam, oil deals, want a piece of the pie), they are now behaving about as they behaved in 1940. "How many men does it take to defend Paris?" "Nobody knows...it's never been tried." "Why are there trees planted along the Champs-Elysee?" "So the Germans can march in the shade." "One million like-new rifles for sale...only been dropped once." The right-wing columnist Jonathan Goldberg dubbed them "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" several years ago, long before this latest matter. Has a great cadence, and it's accurate. Ever wonder why there are virtually no French folks on this list? A few Belgians, and the one guy who broke one of the crypto challenges in the mid-90s, though he was never much of a commentator on the list per se. But essentially zero French input. I was once invited to give a talk to "Imagina," a French-affiliated conference and trade show held in a ritzy (literally) hotel in Monte Carlo. I was on a panel with David Chaum and also gave a separate talk. I had a few days to talk to my French hosts and panel arrangers, and also to some French journalists. They were fascinated with the postmodern, deconstructionist, philosophical implications of crypto anarchy...and they loved throwing around references to Saussure, Foucault, and various other French lit-crit figures, but the thought of actually programming computers or building technology was, apparently, horrifying to them. No wonder there are no longer any well-known French computer companies...Matra has faded, Thompsen CSF is doing most of its real work in its affiliates and owned companies elsewhere. Finally, a personal story. I lived for more than a year on the French Riviera, in the town of Villefranche sur Mer, between Nice and Monte Carlo. A great experience. The beautiful Cap Ferrat, home to Somerset Maugham, David Niven, and, later, the Rolling Stones, was visible from my bedroom window. But the French people were describable with only one word: ingrates. More than a few times we had French people lecture us on what racists the Americans were...this even as their Algerian problem was all around us. And one old French lady said "We should take all of the Americans out in a boat and sink it." This was in 1964, just one generation after the loss of hundreds of thousands of American lives to liberate France and the rest of continental Europe. This was after the French had put up only token military resistance when the Germans rolled across their borders in 1940. American soldiers fought and died where the French would not. (Yeah, I know, they were all in "Le Resistance." Fatuous nonsense.) This is probably why so many French hated the Americans so much, in a way the Germans and Austrians and Italians did not. The Americans defeated the Axis fair and square and the Germans knew this. They were occupied by the conquering force for several years and moved on with their lives, restarting their once-impressive economy and returning to the forefront of nations. Except for the Nazi atrocities, with a fair amount of honor left. The French, on the other hand, showed no honor. And so they resented and despised the Americans for doing what they themselves were unwilling to do. Fuck them. Again, I was and still am against "foreign entanglements" and "pre-emptive wars," but if there's one good thing that comes out of this war it's that the French are getting their comeuppance. Not only are their loans to Iraq never likely to be repaid, but they are clearly utterly out in the cold on the "rebuilding of Iraq" and on future oil deals. The cheese-eating surrender monkeys are now wining [SIC] that they should be "included" in the aftermath of the war, that they should at least be allow to send in literary theorists to explain the existential significance of the war for the Iraqi people. --Tim May
At 11:17 PM -0700 4/29/03, Adam Back wrote:
So I guess the American-way used to stand for something -- beliefs in freedoms etc., and that one symbol used historically to express support of those freedoms was the US flag. So I'm supposing this is the historic reason people fly flags, on their cars, houses, businesses etc. (A practice virtually non-existant in any other country I've lived in, or travelled to).
I saw a whole bunch of Swiss flags flying everywhere I went in Switzerland the last time I was over there (about 5 years ago). It impressed me as more flags than I usually see in the US. Cheers - Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Due process for all | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | used to be the | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz@pwpconsult.com | American way. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA
participants (6)
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Adam Back -
Bill Frantz -
Declan McCullagh -
Jim Dixon -
Sunder -
Tim May