Re: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs"
this, but at least the point is arguable. The issue of whether human cloning research is so intrinsically sensitive or dangerous that it requires preemptive raids and fishing expeditions is a topic worth discussing. For now, I'm pointing out some of the disturbing constitutional issues.
Cloning taboo, as all other taboos exist because of the influence they may have on the powers that be. Individual identity is a basis for so-called "legal system" and law enforcement in general. While corporations and governments (as in "powers that be") are allowed group/communal identities, mere citizen-units are not. I think that there is a generic fear that powerful individuals (cloning is off-limits to wage slaves) would somehow become more powerful if they can copy themselves. Also, lot of the System is based on the strict reproduction control, individuals coming out in unapproved manner would mess that up. Can you imagine Tim May *brought up* by Tim May ? Horrible. But I don't think that it can be stopped. There is a strong incentive for corporations to breed obedient workers and for the state to breed servile citizens. That is much more economical and less risky than having to brainwash each and every new generation. Soon you'll see middle-aged bald and impotent managers asking the meekest and lowest paid 10-hr/day workers if they will donate some stem cells for a day off. Same thing will happen in the voting booths. Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
At 11:02 AM 7/1/01 -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote:
on the powers that be. Individual identity is a basis for so-called "legal system" and law enforcement in general. While corporations and governments (as in "powers that be") are allowed group/communal identities, mere citizen-units are not.
Get a grip. Any infant born is currently treated as an "individual", even if they are accompanied by identical siblings ---identical twins are natural clones.
I think that there is a generic fear that powerful individuals (cloning is off-limits to wage slaves) would somehow become more powerful if they can copy themselves.
Its religious idiots for the most part, at least in the US.
On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote:
Get a grip. Any infant born is currently treated as an "individual", even if they are accompanied by identical siblings ---identical twins are natural clones.
Actually, I have been wondering about this statement. Does anyone have any data on whether identicals carry the same fingerprints? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------
Why not do a search? http://www.google.com/search?q=identical+twins+matching+fingerprints -Declan On Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 07:52:27AM -0500, measl@mfn.org wrote:
On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote:
Get a grip. Any infant born is currently treated as an "individual", even if they are accompanied by identical siblings ---identical twins are natural clones.
Actually, I have been wondering about this statement. Does anyone have any data on whether identicals carry the same fingerprints?
-- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org
If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote:
Get a grip. Any infant born is currently treated as an "individual", even if they are accompanied by identical siblings ---identical twins are natural clones.
All children are 'natural' clones (as if one could have an unnatural anything - creepy religous zealotry that), the only question is what percentage. Identical twins are 100% identical 'clones' but only 50% identical clones with each parent (and 25% for each grandparent). The entire 'clone' issue is nothing more than muddy religous thinking. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Mon, 2 Jul 2001 measl@mfn.org wrote:
Actually, I have been wondering about this statement. Does anyone have any data on whether identicals carry the same fingerprints?
Identical siblings do not carry the same fingerprints, nor retina scans. There are also larger-scale structures like ear cartilage that are nonidentical. Bear
participants (6)
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David Honig -
Declan McCullagh -
Jim Choate -
measl＠mfn.org -
Morlock Elloi -
Ray Dillinger