-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Morlock wrote: Faustine wrote:
Too bad you seemed to have missed the entire point of the passage: if your relationships are making you bitter and miserable, there's no sense in blaming the other half of the human race for whatever weaknesses of your own cause you to keep seeking out the same old archetypically shitty situations.
Still, the difference is immaterial. Testosterone & stuff on that Y chromosome drive men to seek women and get into shitty situations. There is nothing voluntary there, most men have 'clingy' need for women.
Bah. If you've always found that the women who are willing to sleep with you are irritating, at odds with your emotional temperament and after your money, why not spare yourself all the headaches and schedule appointments with an escort, maid service and sperm bank? Seriously, doing a cold-eyed cost/benefit analysis might save you some real misery in the long run. That so many people are driven to go through the motions of the very things that bring them the most unhappiness is a real shame. Or else, you could keep always looking for a woman who has a view of things more to your liking. If you're the kind of man who posts here, I can't imagine you'd have much in common with "average people" anyway. So why fall back on citing the flaws of the average woman (which, incidentally, I'm not denying) in this case.
Characterising not-mine relationships as pathologically-dependent and clingy and others as 'drawn to independent' and noble is nonsense.
Who said anything about noble? There are more than enough flavors of psychological pathology to go around--but of the infinite number of problems that can come from dating a woman as strong-willed and unsentimental as you are, being whinily pressured to measure up to an imaginary ideal just isn't one of them.
Evolution is not beyond reproach nor Holy Dogma, and I see no reason why wouldn't a sensible male* bitch about this parasitic setup.
But nobody's forcing you to shell out cash to goldiggers and breeders: find a woman who doesn't buy into either scenario and you're in business. They're certainly out there, just a lot harder to find.
"Fit" and "unfit" for "human companionship" are far to into nacionalsocialist ideology, I'd rather not go there.
It doesn't take a judgment by society at large to realize that some people really are better off alone instead of inflicting their destructive fucked-up personality on others (psychotics, alcoholics, etc). On the other hand, if more people refused to cave in to societal pressures and thought about what they really wanted to do with their lives (instead of blindly falling into the "spouse, family, 9 to 5 job" trap out of conformism and a fear of the unknown) it would be a great thing. ~Faustine. *** The right to be let alone is indeed the beginning of all freedoms. - --William O. Douglas, Associate Justice, US Supreme Court -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 (C) 1997-1999 Network Associates, Inc. and its affiliated companies. (Diffie-Helman/DSS-only version) iQA/AwUBPAxQQfg5Tuca7bfvEQIzIwCdHhJmVj0N0La5AcXyXH7vVxkDnZEAnRwy o5Ne4IpcdxYyZyXa3ykRjOcY =xq/M -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Bah. If you've always found that the women who are willing to sleep with you are
Look, I was discussing the meaning of "need" and pointlessness of attaching moral qualifications to that. But I'll have to oink to be understood. Prayers to the Godess of Semantics didn't help.
not spare yourself all the headaches and schedule appointments with an escort,
Do you have any idea how much it costs to get a decent escort ? Between $750 and $2500 for the night. At $1500 average, once per week comes to $78K per year, and that is not tax-deductible. State-sponsored whores are cheaper. No, I am NOT taking offers on competitive services.
might save you some real misery in the long run. That so many people are driven to go through the motions of the very things that bring them the most unhappiness is a real shame.
Most people are perfectly happy to go through the motions. And they are not asking to be saved.
"Fit" and "unfit" for "human companionship" are far to into nacionalsocialist ideology, I'd rather not go there.
It doesn't take a judgment by society at large to realize that some people really are better off alone instead of inflicting their destructive
You are again disbursing qualifications on the false assumption that anyone shares common grounds with you. And you are even not consistent, since here you seem to favour conformity. 'Some people' are 'better off', no shit ? Who gets to decide what is destructive ? The majority, you imply. You are a bigot. ===== end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com
My point is not to comment on coins, gold or gold digging, but to note that these topics are tied together in the archaic mind of which there is abundance on this list. In his review of COINS, BODIES, GAMES, AND GOLD (Leslie Kurke, Princeton University Press, 1999), L. Randall Wray makes the following points in the March 2001 edition of THE JOURNAL OF ECONOMIC ISSUES. " . . . it has long been established that the first coins were issued in Lydia and East Greece, probably no earlier than the third or fourth quarter of the seventh century BC. The dating is puzzling, because we also know that money, local markets, long-distance trade, and even complex financial instruments existed for thousands of years before coins were invented. If precious metal coins were indeed invented to reduce transaction costs, one wonders why it took so long for sophisticated traders to discover them. " . . . As Karl Polany warned long ago, the Greek economy was 'embedded' in other noneconomic institutions, 'the economic process itself being instituted through kinship, marriage, age-groups, secret societies, totemic associations, and public solemnities.' " . . . She [Leslie Kurke] begins by quoting an intriguing passage form Herodotus: 'The Lydians use customs very similar to those of the Greeks, apart from the fact that they prostitute their female children. And first of men whom we know, they struck and used currency of gold and silver, and they were also the first retail traders. And the Lydians themselves claim that also the games that now exist for them and for the Greeks were their invention.' "Note how Herodotus juxtaposes prostitution, coinage, retail trade, and games--all (inaccurately) attributed to the Lydians, who are otherwise supposed to be much like the Greeks. As Kurke wonders, 'Why do all these phenomena form a natural class . . .' " . . . while prostitution, games, and retail trade are frequently discussed and linked in the [period] literature, coinage is virtually never discussed (at least in a positive sense; almost all references are to counterfeiting). Quite the contrary, Kurke insists . . . for concern with what the texts _don't_ say. She also notes that the greatest Greek democracy, Athens, produced not a single text supportive of democracy--rather, all contemporaneous discussion of Athenian political theory was written by a hostile elite. " . . . In her view, 'the minting of coin would represent the state's assertion of its ultimate authority to constitute and regulate value in all spheres in which general-purpose money operated simultaneously--economic, social, political, and religious. Thus, state-issued coinage as a universal equivalent, like the civic _agora_ in which it circulated, symbolized the merger in a single token or site of many different domains of value, all under the final authority of the city.' "In a sense, the choice of precious metals for coinage was a historical accident, a pointed challenge to the elite monopoly over precious metal. By coining precious metal, the _polis_ appropriated the highest sphere of gift exchange, and with its stamp it asserted its ultimate authority--both inwardly (or domestically) but also outward (in long-distance trade): 'For every Greek _polis_ that issued its own coin asserted its autonomy and independence from every other Greek city, while coinage also functions as one institution among many through which constituted itself as the final instance against the claims of an internal elite.' As the _polis_ used coins for its own payments and insisted on payment in coin, it inserted its sovereignty into retail trade in the _agora_. Mainstream economists frequently assert that growth of the local market was associated with expansion of democracy, but Kurke stands the typical Austrian argument on its head by noting the critical role played by the _polis_ in wresting control away from the elite. " . . . introduction of coins arose out of a 'seventh/sixth century crisis of justice and unfair distribution of property.' Coins appeared at this particular time because the _polis_ had gained sufficient strength to rival the _symposia_, -hetaireiari_ (private drinking clubs), and other institutions and _xenia_ (elite networking) that maintained elite dominance. At the same time, the _agora_ and its use of coined money subverted hierarchies of gift exchange, just as a shift to taxes and regular payments to city officials (as well as severe penalties levied on officials who accepted gifts) challenged the 'natural' order that relied on gifts and favors. It is no coincidence that elite literary works disparaged the _agora_ as a place for deceit and that coinage was always noted for its 'counterfeit' quality. " . . . Obviously the elite reacted to such developments, although in a veiled manner. When money is discussed in the texts, its introduction is invariably attributed to tyrants who destroy the _nomos_, the community, and the divine order. It is also interesting that the elite usually attributes invention of money to the requirements of scorned retail trade--just as modern economics does, albeit without scorn--rather than to the struggle to assert sovereignty of the _polis_. As Kurke argues, this 'mystification' of the origins of money is ideological--as it remains today--a purposeful rejection of the legitimacy of democratic government. "A major portion of the book is devoted to elite representations of games and 'bodies' (prostitution, objectification of women, and artistic depiction of the female form). Recall from the quote above that Herodotus linked Lydian creation of coinage to invention of games and prostitution of female children. Kurke notes that the whole array of Greek games emerged at the same time as coins and wonders how games form a natural class with coins in literary texts--with games of chance ridiculed while games of order were held to be appropriate. She argues that games of chance served as a shorthand for all the vices of a disembedded economy: the acquisition of small profits by shameful means and creation of random fortunes as opposed to the 'natural' fortuned gained through aristocratic birth. "Just as two classes of games were created, two classes of prostitute were invented at the time of coinage. . . . it becomes necessary for the elite to distinguish their prostitutes from those used by the citizens. Thus, the _hetariai_ (courtesans) who frequented the _symposia_ to exchange their services for 'gifts' were distinguished from the _pornai_ (whores) who serviced citizens for coins. Kurke notes that the _polis_ created cheap public brothels for use by the citizens because 'to be a citizen means always having a place to put your penis.'"
participants (3)
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Faustine
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Morlock Elloi
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Richard Fiero