kuro5hin.org || 12 Year Old Girl Commits Suicide After Christian Taunts.
http://www.Kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/3/15/124222/252 -- ____________________________________________________________________ If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution not the final precedence since it's the primary authority? The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi all, I was reading this article and I must say that I find the author to be rather biased and strongly disagree with some of the things he said, for example -Quote- To acknowledge that Tempest Smith's classmates were exerting cruel psychological torture on the young woman with the hymns their church had taught them would be to indict not only the school children, but the hymns as well. To make this tragic event public knowledge would be to put a mirror to the face of the majority, forcing them to see the intolerance in their own eyes, crumbling their arguments that it no longer exists. -Unquote- The use of hymns to impose psychological tramour on someone else cannot indict the hymns themselves, that is total and utter bullshit, is that not the same as saying that when someone uses a steak knife to stab someone, the person who did the stabbing is responsible as well as the knife? Total utter crap. Secondly: -Quote- Cassie Bernall was not persecuted because of her beliefs, she was gunned down at random by madmen. Tempest Smith was driven to suicide by the constant harassment from her peers, who were singling her out specifically for her religion. The former's death was a senseless act of violence, the latter's the result of hate. -Unquote- They claim persecution due to belief, but at the same time Ive been around wiccans, and I would be very very interested to know just how much pushing of her beliefs she did on other people, because Ive heard the ridicule of Christians that come out of wiccan mouths. I dont agree with any form of religious persecution, and I believe that a person should be able to believe what they want, and express it how they want, providing that they dont push it on other people, hence, if this story is infact true, the kids that pushed her to suicide were wrong, but Im interested to hear what she did to incite this, because I seriously doubt kids singing hymns at her without either provocation from her or alternatively pushing from their teachers/parents. Anyway, I just thought I would give my comments Later Andrew -----Original Message----- From: owner-cypherpunks@minder.net [mailto:owner-cypherpunks@minder.net]On Behalf Of Jim Choate Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 3:27 PM To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com; hell@EINSTEIN.ssz.com Subject: kuro5hin.org || 12 Year Old Girl Commits Suicide After Christian Taunts. http://www.Kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/3/15/124222/252 -- ____________________________________________________________________ If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution not the final precedence since it's the primary authority? The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Andrew Alston wrote:
The use of hymns to impose psychological tramour on someone else cannot indict the hymns themselves, that is total and utter bullshit, is that not the same as saying that when someone uses a steak knife to stab someone, the person who did the stabbing is responsible as well as the knife? Total utter crap.
Perhaps. On the other hand, it is clear that people attach connotations to expression based on their experience of where that expression is used. Think of Carmina Burana after it was used in the Omen, or the associations carried by heavy metal. E.g. both sorts of music can be used in a movie as a leitmotif to satanistic themes. Similarly a Goth attire and a suitable amount of group aggression will likely be as efficient on a child with a Christian fundamental worldview as a direct threat. And as time goes by, such connotations may well subsume the original meaning. A good example of this is what being a skinhead is today and was in the sixties. If the community at large embraces religious intolerance, Christian chant may well be the ultimate threat to a young Wicca. If it has a significant part in an incident leading to teenage suicide, this lends credibility to the claim that what in other communities might be a legitimate form of religious self-expression, is in this one used to taunt the misfit. This gives Christianity the bad face the writer talks about, and gives the majority an incentive to silence the story.
They claim persecution due to belief, but at the same time Ive been around wiccans, and I would be very very interested to know just how much pushing of her beliefs she did on other people, because Ive heard the ridicule of Christians that come out of wiccan mouths.
While the few Wiccas I know are introverted enough not to even try. 'Guess they come in all shapes and sizes, like people tend to.
but Im interested to hear what she did to incite this, because I seriously doubt kids singing hymns at her without either provocation from her or alternatively pushing from their teachers/parents.
Huh? Apparently you've never had the treatment; children can be intolerant
as hell. Primary school gave me the most frightening examples of herd
behavior I've *ever* seen.
Sampo Syreeni
On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
leitmotif to satanistic themes. Similarly a Goth attire and a suitable amount of group aggression will likely be as efficient on a child with a Christian fundamental worldview as a direct threat. And as time goes by,
Goth attire?? You mean short robes under leather armor and ring mail? And why should that be frightening to Christians, anyway? Rome was at the height of the *Pagan* empire when the Goths sacked it.... I'm betting the early Christians around Rome at the time probably joined in gleefully. Bear
On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:
On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
leitmotif to satanistic themes. Similarly a Goth attire and a suitable amount of group aggression will likely be as efficient on a child with a Christian fundamental worldview as a direct threat. And as time goes by,
Or how about a man wearing a pair of briefs under a wedding dress (and full length veil) made out of crystal clear plastic. You think I am kidding? I saw it at a private party. I thought it looked great! I suggested to him to wear it at gay pride.
Ray Dillinger wrote:
Goth attire?? You mean short robes under leather armor and ring mail? And why should that be frightening to Christians, anyway? Rome was at the height of the *Pagan* empire when the Goths sacked it.... I'm betting the early Christians around Rome at the time probably joined in gleefully.
Nope :-) The Roman Empire was already officially Christian when the Visigoths attacked the city in 408 & 410. It had sort of been for a hundred years, but non-Christian religions had only begun to be banned by the Emperor Theodosios in the 390s. Christianity was probably still a minority religion in most provinces, but the majority of the population of Egypt & Syria were probably Christian, and perhaps also Africa (i.e. more or less what we now call Tunisia & parts of Algeria). In the rest of the Empire the city-dwellers tended to be Christian, especially the working classes, the slaves & the poor, but the country-folk were mostly not Christian - hence the word "pagan" which simply means someone who lives in the country, as opposed to the city. Of course in those days peasants were the vast majority of the population & the urban working-classes a small minority. The aristocracy of the city of Rome itself was one of the last sections of society to be won over to the new religion. But the royal family (this was one of the rare bits of history when Rome was actually ruled by a dynasty in which Emperor succeeded Emperor without civil war) was thoroughly Christian, maybe even fanatically so. Of course they had little connection with the Roman city aristocracy being a military family of Spanish origin with the habit of marrying Greeks or barbarians. (There is some speculation that the reason Theodosios got to be Emperor in the first place was that he was the only senior army officer left who wasn't a German - and he managed to marry most of his female relatives off to the German officers PDQ - presumably to get and keep them on his side) The Goths also been Christians since before most of the Romans were. They were mostly followers of the Arian heresy, which caused some mutual stress & recrimination. It was one of the reasons that they never managed to control Gaul for very long - the local aristos were mostly Catholic - a century or so later the kings of the Franks became Catholic and settled down to found France. Paris has always been worth a mass. When Alaric's troops sacked Rome he went for an audience with the Pope. His policies were mostly pro-Roman and always pro-Christian, though he didn't let either of those get in the way of a good pillage. His cousin Athaulf married Galla Placidia, the younger sister of the Emperors - not apparently against her will. She later became arguably the only woman to rule Rome in Imperial times as Emperor, i.e. "Augusta", in her own right. The really *nasty* sack of Rome was a generation later, when the Vandals did it over. (Odd how these words live on in the language "Vandal", "Gothic", "Frank" and "Romantic" all have quite strong connotations these days!.) The Goths didn't want to destroy Rome they wanted to be part of it. More refugees than invaders. Illegal immigrants with attitude. I strongly suspect that if they had met a half-pissed skinny bloke with pagan tendencies in black leather with multiple piercings, white makeup, and a penchant for the gloomy end of rock, they would have cut his head off first and done the cultural analysis afterwards. Ken Brown, off-topic, but pedantic.
On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Ken Brown wrote: [Snip; it's nice to know people know their history...]
I strongly suspect that if they had met a half-pissed skinny bloke with pagan tendencies in black leather with multiple piercings, white makeup, and a penchant for the gloomy end of rock, they would have cut his head off first and done the cultural analysis afterwards.
Which would seem to get us back to my original point. This "Goth" look is as
powerful a message as any, and as likely to shock current Christians as it
would have been earlier ones, especially if you happen to be the only one
not to belong. The same goes for groups of chanting classmates and an
isolated Wicca. In both cases the message is a one of collective aggression
and certainly regularly sending such a message casts doubts on both the
sender and the message. Even if the message takes the superficial appearance
of valid religious expression.
Sampo Syreeni
but Im interested to hear what she did to incite this, because I seriously doubt kids singing hymns at her without either provocation from her or alternatively pushing from their teachers/parents.
Huh? Apparently you've never had the treatment; children can be intolerant as hell. Primary school gave me the most frightening examples of herd behavior I've *ever* seen. Heh, that wasnt my point, I wasnt trying to say that primary school kids dont provoke, and dont cause trouble, etc etc, my point was that most primary school kids would definatly find other means than singing Christian hymns at her, in my experience kids are not ones for singing hymns, they prefer to act in far less subtle ways? Maybe Im wrong? *shrug* Andrew
participants (6)
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Andrew Alston -
Jim Choate -
Ken Brown -
Mark Allyn -
Ray Dillinger -
Sampo Syreeni