On Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 07:38 PM, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
I personally don't answer my door unless I recognize them. Of course I realize that I'm missing scintillating conversation with Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and the occasional vacuum cleaner salesman.
Making yourself generally unavailable should be your first line of defense.
I can't imagine that the FBI would be that easily dissuaded if they really wished to subpoena you. What about the cases of the feds "camping out" outside a witness's home in order to ambush him with a subpoena? How do you defend against this?
Not answering the door makes them _at least_ wait until one has to leave. Oh, and they can't wait _on_ your property, now can they? That would be trespassing. See below:
In Tim's case, I suppose he could dip in to his Y2K emergency supplies, and remain holed up for quite some time. But some of us have to go to work. Is "I'm stuck at home because I don't want to be served" a valid reason for taking a sick day? :)
I have about a 200-foot driveway from my house to the semi-public road serving our hill. They can't wait _on_ my property, without trespassing. This means I can get in my car and get out without being served. (There is no requirement that a car window be rolled down to receive papers.) (If I see someone skulking around on my property, I would be morally justified in shooting them, of course. Demanding that they leave, from a window, and threatening to shoot is probably not actionable even in today's weird legal climate. Actually shooting them, while morally justified, is proably not wise.)
More seriously, is it a crime to go out of your way to avoid being served? If I'm caught crawling out my bathroom window when there's an FBI agent on my door step, what kind of problems (in addition to whatever put the fed on my doorstep in the first place) would I be facing.
None. You are not obligated to make serving papers convenient. You can be out of the country, you can leave by limousine from an underground garage, you can crawl out you bathroom window. This is, as the lawyers say, "black letter law." (I hope we don't get the drivel about how "Happy Fun Court is not amused.") --Tim May
On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Tim May wrote:
Not answering the door makes them _at least_ wait until one has to leave.
Of course.
Oh, and they can't wait _on_ your property, now can they? That would be trespassing.
Unless you live in an apartment, and they have the permission of the landlord... Actually, in that case, could they not get the landlord to unlock the apartment door for them, if "permission to enter" is granted in your lease? What are the warrant requirements for this?
I have about a 200-foot driveway from my house to the semi-public road serving our hill. They can't wait _on_ my property, without trespassing. This means I can get in my car and get out without being served. (There is no requirement that a car window be rolled down to receive papers.)
Having a garage attached to your house would be very convenient. I'm thinking of the majority of cases where the citizen doesn't have a convenient method of leaving his home without interacting with "visitors."
None. You are not obligated to make serving papers convenient. You can be out of the country, you can leave by limousine from an underground garage, you can crawl out you bathroom window. This is, as the lawyers say, "black letter law."
Several years ago, I would probably point out that such actions would be likely to cause you more difficulty if and when you have to interact with the feds. Knowing what I do now about such things, however, I'd fairly certain there's little to lose.
(I hope we don't get the drivel about how "Happy Fun Court is not amused.")
Bollocks. The problem is that Happy Fun Court is never amused. -MW-
At 10:07 PM 9/25/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
Not answering the door makes them _at least_ wait until one has to leave.
Oh, and they can't wait _on_ your property, now can they? That would be trespassing.
I think its not trespass until you've advised them to leave, if they approach a door. Don't know about signage by your driveway; locally you need a 3 signs per mile (IIRC) on your property to keep people away. Not sure about how long you can linger at a closed door. Does lingering become harassment? Aside, on property rights: I learned that in LA county the county Vector Control (ie, mosquito) people can come onto your property to sample standing water, if they suspect it; and even add fish to your standing water (eg birdbath) pools.
I have about a 200-foot driveway from my house to the semi-public road serving our hill. They can't wait _on_ my property, without trespassing.
If you had a gate with sign, probably not. But an open driveway is ok. When I was ~10 my dad, who recognized a server, sent me out to tell the guy to leave. (We had a similarly long driveway.) He left. It was cool.
This means I can get in my car and get out without being served. (There is no requirement that a car window be rolled down to receive papers.)
Cypherpunks don't talk to strangers. Except to tell them to go away. Maybe using a voice-changer to say that.
(If I see someone skulking around on my property, I would be morally justified in shooting them, of course. Demanding that they leave, from a window, and threatening to shoot is probably not actionable even in today's weird legal climate. Actually shooting them, while morally justified, is proably not wise.)
You could peer from a window with a rifle pointing at the sky, but I'd be careful about pointing it towards even uninvited visitors. This thread is an advertisement for big noisy dogs, too.
On Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 08:03 AM, David Honig wrote:
I think its not trespass until you've advised them to leave, if they approach a door. Don't know about signage by your driveway; locally you need a 3 signs per mile (IIRC) on your property to keep people away. Not sure about how long you can linger at a closed door. Does lingering become harassment?
I agree that it is not trespass if the driveway is ungated/unlocked...one is inviting others to come and knock on the door, deliver packages, etc. However, as you said, if they have been told to leave then they are trespassing if they remain.
Aside, on property rights: I learned that in LA county the county Vector Control (ie, mosquito) people can come onto your property to sample standing water, if they suspect it; and even add fish to your standing water (eg birdbath) pools.
I've had the fire department wandering through my back yard. I saw a guy in a blue uniform walking around my back yard, so I yelled "Can I help you?" He told me he was doing a routine inspection of brush near my property. This reminded me I needed to get a gate installed in an arched door that is the only access to my back yard. ObProcrastination: I still haven't done this, as I want a custom grillwork gate made by a welder/ironworker. BTW, my understanding of the law is that the police/sheriff/FBI cannot (repeat: cannot) use these authorized administrative accesses (mosquito control, fire department, Child Protective Services, even Immigration) as "cover" for their own bypassing-the-Fourth inspections.
(If I see someone skulking around on my property, I would be morally justified in shooting them, of course. Demanding that they leave, from a window, and threatening to shoot is probably not actionable even in today's weird legal climate. Actually shooting them, while morally justified, is proably not wise.)
You could peer from a window with a rifle pointing at the sky, but I'd be careful about pointing it towards even uninvited visitors.
This thread is an advertisement for big noisy dogs, too.
The neighbor closer to the main road than I am has just such a big, noisy dog. "Shadow" is part-wolf, and is mean, vicious, and loud. However, he is so uncontrollable that the owner keeps him locked up in his back yard, where he runs from one side to another and barks. Twice in my six years here the dog has "gotten out," approaching me menacingly and causing me to back up slowly and look around for me the nearest heavy stick to defend myself with. (My neighbor even said, "If Shadow ever gets out and tries to attack you, just shoot him." I think the owner and his two young boys would really rather have a more normal dog they could take with them on walks, let inside the house, and treat as a pet.) The point being, dogs are usually either so vicious they are chained or locked-up, or are docile enough to just wag their tails when the nice men in the FBI suits approach. Anyway, my cats would probably not like a dog around. Nor would I. (Dogs are fine, but they take a lot of care and they interfere with trips away from home.) As for holding a rifle, the law is about "brandishing." It's legal to have a rifle or handgun on one's person, but not to point it at a person or threaten to. Chief Justice Warren Burger used to answer the door at his Washington-area house with a handgun in his hand. (I lived in the area at the time, but I don't remember if he lived in Viriginia, where handguns are legal, or in D.C., where they are not, or in Maryland, with various fascist gun laws. He no doubt could have gotten one of the various exemptions, as he was not one of the proles.) I've answered my door a couple of times with a pistol in a waist (W.A.S.T.E.?) holster. Some startled looks, but no one has called 911 on me. Or at least no cops have arrived to question me about wearing a handgun. (For the curious, it is not a violation of the carry laws to have a handgun on one's person in one's own property, even, interestingly, a tent. Unless barred by other laws (National Parks, etc.). --Tim May
On Tue, Sep 25, 2001 at 10:07:49PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
None. You are not obligated to make serving papers convenient. You can be out of the country, you can leave by limousine from an underground garage, you can crawl out you bathroom window. This is, as the lawyers say, "black letter law."
There's an entertaining aside that happened in Hawaii during WWII during a conflict between civilian and military law. The US Marshals, on behalf of the civil courts, tried to serve a military commander with a subpoena. The officer ordered troops to block the marshal from walking onto the porch, while he escaped through a side exit to a waiting car. -Declan
At 09:51 AM 9/26/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
On Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 08:03 AM, David Honig wrote:
I've had the fire department wandering through my back yard. I saw a guy in a blue uniform walking around my back yard, so I yelled "Can I help
Its the blue *helmets* not uniforms that one should worry about :-)
This thread is an advertisement for big noisy dogs, too.
The neighbor closer to the main road than I am has just such a big, noisy dog. "Shadow" is part-wolf, and is mean, vicious, and loud.
Not sociopath dogs, just guard-like dogs that would hassle an agent hanging out on your front bench. A nice slobbery dog with a loud voice and some reasonable sense of territorial sovereignty. Maybe some hostility to men in suits.
The point being, dogs are usually either so vicious they are chained or locked-up, or are docile enough to just wag their tails when the nice men in the FBI suits approach.
My cat agrees that dogs are in general useless noisy and annoying but consider how useful they are in secure installations (jails, mil bases, gulags, etc.) For physical security and alarms, dogs are pretty good.
Anyway, my cats would probably not like a dog around. Nor would I. (Dogs are fine, but they take a lot of care and they interfere with trips away from home.)
Dogs are drunk football players. Cats are considered *public good* and allowed to roam freely, in Calif. Cats also reduce the incidence of allergies (by altering immunoglobin levels differently from other antigens like mites) among children living with them (as reported in _Science_). And of course they have hackernature.
Chief Justice Warren Burger used to answer the door at his Washington-area house with a handgun in his hand.
Nice. Do not taunt *that* happy fun judge.
He no doubt could have gotten one of the various exemptions, as he was not one of the proles.)
Yeah, slightly, a supreme...
(For the curious, it is not a violation of the carry laws to have a handgun on one's person in one's own property, even, interestingly, a tent. Unless barred by other laws (National Parks, etc.).
Or work. Many companies have private rules against that, but otherwise its legally protected. Lots of gun store employees wear open carry at work, not many others. Pilots I suppose, now.
David Honig wrote:
At 09:51 AM 9/26/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
The point being, dogs are usually either so vicious they are chained or locked-up, or are docile enough to just wag their tails when the nice men in the FBI suits approach.
I've been training dogs for at least 35 years (not counting when I was a kid) and it's pretty easy to have a dog that is both a good house pet, wonderful with kids, and totally alert, totally on guard at all times. Depends what you start with. I suggest Airedales as being willing to fight bears and lions (they are used for that regualarly) and also being great family dogs, albeit needing a _very_ firm hand and _lots_ of exercise. Best have two, then they wear each other out, and provide twice as much security. Pair them with a mellow dog like a Lab and they will drive it crazy.
My cat agrees that dogs are in general useless noisy and annoying but consider how useful they are in secure installations (jails, mil bases, gulags, etc.)
My cats ( all 5) love dogs. My dogs love cats.
For physical security and alarms, dogs are pretty good.
They never really sleep, and don't quit when the power goes out.
Anyway, my cats would probably not like a dog around.
Mine love my dogs - some (actually most) of my cats are feral cats who first made friends with my dogs, then slowly allowed me to approach.
Nor would I.
What can I say? Except I can't imagine life without a dog. Or two, or preferably 5 or so.
(Dogs
are fine, but they take a lot of care and they interfere with trips away from home.)
hmm. well, why don't they go along? or why not cultivate a trusted someone who can feed the dogs?
Dogs are drunk football players.
Hardly.
Cats are considered *public good* and allowed to roam freely,
Hardly. Here, you get a $300 fine for feeding outside cats, $165 for allowing a cat to roam.
Cats also reduce the incidence of allergies (by altering immunoglobin levels differently from other antigens like mites) among children living with them (as reported in _Science_). And of course they have hackernature.
Well, that's the first thing you've said in this vein I agree with. Cats (and dogs) know one fuck of a lot more about you then you know about them. Speak kindly to them. We keep a bin feeder on the porch for cats, just like we keep a bird feeder in the back yard. Don't betray them. Oh, and btw -- cats can also be great watchcats. I have a cat who absolutely freaks when strangers come -- hides away where I can't even find him. If I come home and he's in hiding, then I know. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver@cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
At 03:21 PM 09/26/2001 -0700, David Honig wrote:
Not sociopath dogs, just guard-like dogs that would hassle an agent hanging out on your front bench. A nice slobbery dog with a loud voice and some reasonable sense of territorial sovereignty. Maybe some hostility to men in suits.
If you're looking for territoriality, alarm capability, and something cops and crooks don't know how to work around or prepare for, don't mess with dogs - go for geese :-) The cops may bring dog biscuits with them to distract dogs, but with geese, that's just a noisy feeding frenzy, and if they didn't bring bribes, well, you can reason with dogs, but geese don't fall for the "Nice doggy" alpha-crap... Of course, this only works well out in the country, though I had a suburban neighbor in New Jersey who had geese for a while before deciding some of the neighbors might get bothered by the noise, and in Tim's case there's a risk that the psycho dog next door might decide they look like food, but they're cheerful to have around and don't require the constant time and attention and work a dog needs.
At 01:29 AM 9/27/01 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
If you're looking for territoriality, alarm capability, and something cops and crooks don't know how to work around or prepare for, don't mess with dogs - go for geese :-)
Actually as a kid we did have geese, who were as you describe. Problem is, local foxes (or wild dogs?) ate them. Clearly the geese should have been armed. dh
Geese are pretty aggressive -- our used to intimidate the sled dogs and eat their dog food. But anyway, dogs should be trained from puppyhood never to eat anything given to them by anyone except their master, at least if you want good guard dogs. But even hunting dogs should be trained that way, so they won't eat the game. Bill Stewart wrote:
At 03:21 PM 09/26/2001 -0700, David Honig wrote:
Not sociopath dogs, just guard-like dogs that would hassle an agent hanging out on your front bench. A nice slobbery dog with a loud voice and some reasonable sense of territorial sovereignty. Maybe some hostility to men in suits.
If you're looking for territoriality, alarm capability, and something cops and crooks don't know how to work around or prepare for, don't mess with dogs - go for geese :-) The cops may bring dog biscuits with them to distract dogs, but with geese, that's just a noisy feeding frenzy, and if they didn't bring bribes, well, you can reason with dogs, but geese don't fall for the "Nice doggy" alpha-crap...
Of course, this only works well out in the country, though I had a suburban neighbor in New Jersey who had geese for a while before deciding some of the neighbors might get bothered by the noise, and in Tim's case there's a risk that the psycho dog next door might decide they look like food, but they're cheerful to have around and don't require the constant time and attention and work a dog needs.
-- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver@cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
David Honig wrote:
At 01:29 AM 9/27/01 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
If you're looking for territoriality, alarm capability, and something cops and crooks don't know how to work around or prepare for, don't mess with dogs - go for geese :-)
Actually as a kid we did have geese, who were as you describe. Problem is, local foxes (or wild dogs?) ate them.
Clearly the geese should have been armed.
Great, just what we need in this country: more goose-stepping morons carrying guns. Anyway, arming geese wouldn't do any good because they don't have, er, arms. What we need are armed guard cats. Cats who have always been fed dry food so the feebs can't lure them away with electric can openers. SRF -- Steve Furlong Computer Condottiere Have GNU, Will Travel 617-670-3793 "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato
David Honig wrote:
Cats are considered *public good* and allowed to roam freely, in Calif.
Actually, that is old common-law doctrine: dogs are property - their owners are legally responsible for their conduct - while cats, like bees, are considered wild animals in temporary and revocable human care.
Cats also reduce the incidence of allergies (by altering immunoglobin levels differently from other antigens like mites) among children living with them (as reported in _Science_).
I've been gaga about cats since I got my first tomcat at the age of 7, many years ago, but I never read that. Can you tell me what issue of Science that article appeared in? Best, Marc de Piolenc
participants (8)
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Bill Stewart -
David Honig -
Declan McCullagh -
F. Marc de Piolenc -
Harmon Seaver -
Meyer Wolfsheim -
Steve Furlong -
Tim May