Re: Anonymizing Scam
The following message by Lance Cottrell responding to John Young's accusations was sent to the cypherpunks list but apparently never appeared here. ========================================================================
On Monday, November 26, 2001, at 06:24 PM, Anonymous wrote:
The following message by Lance Cottrell responding to John Young's accusations was sent to the cypherpunks list but apparently never appeared here.
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Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 00:15:16 -0800 To: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah@shipwright.com>, Digital Bearer Settlement List <dbs@philodox.com>, dcsb@ai.mit.edu, cryptography@wasabisystems.com, cypherpunks@lne.com, jya@pipeline.com From: "Lance M. Cottrell" <lcottrell@anonymizer.com> Subject: Re: Anonymizing Scam Describing our policy of open access as "sucking up to the TLAs" is absurd. I would have thought my history in this field would have earned me some consideration before jumping to that kind of conclusion. Does government and industry have no rights to, or needs for, privacy? It seems a hypocritical position for Cypherpunks to take.
"It seems a hypocritical position for Cypherpunks to take." Assuming that John Young speaks for "Cyphepunks" is bizarre. --Tim May "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant." --John Stuart Mill
On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote:
Assuming that John Young speaks for "Cyphepunks" is bizarre.
Assuming that *anyone* "speaks for [the] cypherpunks" is bizarre...
--Tim May
-- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps Lance meant: "It seems a hypocritical position for *any* cypherpunk to take." -Declan On Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 07:06:59PM -0800, Tim May wrote, quoting Lance:
"It seems a hypocritical position for Cypherpunks to take."
Assuming that John Young speaks for "Cyphepunks" is bizarre.
--Tim May "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant." --John Stuart Mill
Yes indeed. I actually saw several similar statements from other people. The one from John Young seemed to have the widest distribution, so it was the one I replied to. -Lance At 12:17 AM -0500 11/27/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
Perhaps Lance meant: "It seems a hypocritical position for *any* cypherpunk to take."
-Declan
On Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 07:06:59PM -0800, Tim May wrote, quoting Lance:
"It seems a hypocritical position for Cypherpunks to take."
Assuming that John Young speaks for "Cyphepunks" is bizarre.
--Tim May "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant." --John Stuart Mill
-- Lance M. Cottrell lcottrell@anonymizer.com Anonymizer, Inc. President Voice: (619) 725-3180 X304 Fax: (619) 725-3188 www.Anonymizer.com
On Monday, November 26, 2001, at 07:06 PM, Tim May wrote:
On Monday, November 26, 2001, at 06:24 PM, Anonymous wrote:
The following message by Lance Cottrell responding to John Young's accusations was sent to the cypherpunks list but apparently never appeared here.
"It seems a hypocritical position for Cypherpunks to take." Assuming that John Young speaks for "Cyphepunks" is bizarre.
Contrast the phrase "For Cypherpunks" with "For the Cypherpunks". -- "Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are half-wits."--Chris Klein
There are a variety of ways to anonymize surfing and email besides anonymizer services and remailers. Government agencies likely use all these. Reasons for the agencies to use anonymizers and remailers is to learn how they work and to influence operators by purchases, complaints and praise, and to spit in the soup, that is, to raise doubts about the services promises of confidentiality. The same reasons apply for subscribing to this list, for cultivating informants, for spoofing identities, for creating dissension among dissenters, for panicking the populace, for promising impossible assurance. Criticism of anonymizers and remailers and this list is a healthy as criticizing any reputable, and disreputable, private or publice means of communication. Fending off criticism by saying past performance and reputation deserves trust is a hoot and is also a hackneyed reply of someone who is concealing betrayal, or to put it more politely, has not yet learned how to earn trust continuously rather than bank it for unearned profit. Untested trust is no trust at all. And those who most often promise trust are not to be trusted, whether highly reputable individual, government of the free world, or very best friend. Paranoia is no defense against being suckered any more than being a hermit, and believing you are a trusted insider of a trustworthy group is suckerdom par excellance. Dropping your guard: don't. Especially with those of impeccable reputation.
participants (7)
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Anonymous -
Declan McCullagh -
John Young -
Lance M. Cottrell -
measl＠mfn.org -
Petro -
Tim May