On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Steve Thompson wrote:

That would be my view. After all, mistakes do happen and so we should all be understanding of our and their all-too-human failings which occasionaly lead to minor inconveniences.

"minor inconveniences"??? Never been in so much as a holding pen I see. Maybe you should ask to tour your nearest facility, just to get enough information to evaluate the relative "inconvenience" of this scenario - your current view is *totally* unrealistic.

Regards,

Steve

-- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------

Steve Thompson wrote:

Sent: 25 October, 2001 22:46 To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com Subject: Re: Where The Torture Never Stops...

Quoting Sandy Sandfort (sandfort@mindspring.com):

...

"Onin wal-a bin Hakkin" wrote:

...

but in all candor, dont ya think that if a guy is there who SHOULDNT be there, he wouldnt be there after a decent timeframe of investigation?

If you were innocent of any crime and were thrown in the slammer with bad people and given no opportunity to contact friends or lawyers, what would you consider "a decent timeframe of investigation" before they cut you loose? If/when they did cut you loose would you say, "Hey, no hard feeling, I know you have a job to do," or would you seek some sort of compensation?

That would be my view. After all, mistakes do happen and so we should all be understanding of our and their all-too-human failings which occasionaly lead to minor inconveniences.

Help me out here folks. Am I being humor impaired here and not recognizing this as satire or could it be that Steve really believes that having one's freedom stripped away in the most offensive manner is really a "minor incovenience"? Damn, if it's the latter, everyone who ever fought for freedom in America must be spinning in their graves. S a n d y

On Friday, October 26, 2001, at 10:36 AM, Duncan Frissell wrote:

On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Steve Thompson wrote:

...

That would be my view. After all, mistakes do happen and so we should all be understanding of our and their all-too-human failings which occasionaly lead to minor inconveniences.

Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate."

I've seen you quote this several times. Since it's a generality ("the literate") and not just a statement about your own personal view of prison, I dispute it. I'm literate, but prison would indeed be punishment for me. For all of the usual reasons. Being thrown in a jail cell and having reading material is no substitute for liberty. "How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" --Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago

On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:

Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate."

Please tell me this is not meant as it reads. I keep trying, but seem unable to find anything but a straight reading.. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------

This "worldview" of your makes a point of deying the reality of the situation under disussion. It's difficult to enjoy reading "all the worlds scriptures" when you need to spend most of your time insuring your pyhsical *survival*. You have absolutely no concept of our prisons, do you? On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:

Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:14:03 -0400 From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> To: measl@mfn.org, cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com Subject: Re: Where The Torture Never Stops...

At 01:11 PM 10/26/01 -0500, measl@mfn.org wrote:

...

On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:

...

Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate."

Please tell me this is not meant as it reads. I keep trying, but seem unable to find anything but a straight reading..

"Otium sine litteris mors est. -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca

But *with* literature, it's great.

Unfortunately, some prisons deny a wide choice of reading matter to their inmates but as long as you declare yourself a Baha'i upon entry, you get to read all the world's scriptures (including the complete works of L. Ron Hubbard).

DCF

---- [1] And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. [3} ... but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel? [7] And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel. 1 Chronicles 21.

-- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------

At 1:36 PM -0400 10/26/01, Duncan Frissell wrote:

Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate."

DCF ----

Of course you may have to read standing up until you get used to it. Regards, Matt- Rape used as control in U.S. prisons <<http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/091401/091401l.htm> By NEVE GORDON National Catholic Reporter, September 14, 2001 Many prisoners are targeted for sexual exploitation the minute they enter a penal facility; their age, looks, sexual preference and other characteristics mark them as candidates for maltreatment. In a new groundbreaking report, Human Rights Watch documents the widespread prisoner-on-prisoner rape in U.S. men's prisons. The rights group accuses state authorities of not taking measures to prevent and punish rape and, in many cases, for allowing this cruel form of abuse to persist. One reads that in extreme incidents prisoners find themselves the "slaves" of their rapists. Forced to satisfy another man's sexual appetites upon demand, they may also be responsible for washing his clothes, massaging his back, cooking his food and cleaning his cell. They are frequently "rented out" for sex services, sold or even auctioned off to other inmates. One prisoner from Arkansas wrote to Human Rights Watch: "I had no choice but to submit to being Inmate B's prison wife. Out of fear for my life, I submitted to [him]. In all reality, I was his slave, as the Officials of the Arkansas Department of Corrections … did absolutely nothing." "Rapes are unimaginably vicious and brutal," writes Joanne Mariner, deputy director of the Americas division of Human Rights Watch, and author of "No Escape: Male Rape in U.S. Prisons." Gang assaults are not uncommon, and victims may be left beaten, bloody and even dead; they almost always suffer from extreme psychological stress, including nightmares, deep depression, shame and self-hatred, which may lead to suicide. There are also known cases whereby the victim has contracted HIV. No conclusive national data exists regarding the prevalence of this phenomenon, but the most recent statistical survey, published in the Prison Journal, revealed that 21 percent of inmates in seven Midwestern prisons had experienced at least one episode of pressured or forced sex since being incarcerated, and at least 7 percent had been raped in their facility. Correctional authorities generally deny that rape is a serious problem. In Human Rights Watch's survey of all 50 states, not one correctional authority reported abuse rates even approaching those found by the rights group. The authorities' reluctance to acknowledge the scale of the violation is reflected not only in misleading official statistics, but also in a glaringly inadequate response to incidents of rape. When an inmate informs an officer he has been threatened with rape or, worse, actually assaulted, his complaint is seldom investigated, and only in rare instances is an inmate protected from further abuse. "U.S. state prisons have failed to take even obvious, basic steps necessary to tackle prison rape," Mariner writes. "This deliberate indifference has had tragic consequences." In the report, one reads of M.R., a Texas inmate who was violently raped and beaten several times over a period of several months by the same prisoner. Fearful for his life, he reported the abuse to the prison authorities, but received no protection. In fact one investigator dismissed the complaint as a "lovers' quarrel." Finally one day the rapist showed up in M.R.'s cell and attacked him. M.R. suffered a broken jaw, left collarbone and finger, a dislocated left shoulder, lacerations to his scalp and two major concussions that caused internal bleeding. The rapist was never criminally prosecuted. Why, one might ask, do prison authorities turn a blind eye to this horrific phenomenon? While Human Rights Watch does not directly deal with this issue, it appears that the authorities' lack of response is premeditated. Rape is an effective, albeit ruthless, mechanism of inmate control. By allowing rape to go on, the "correctional" authorities ensure that prisoner violence is contained within the cells. Frustrated prisoners are permitted to release aggression on condition that they direct it against other inmates, not the authorities. That the victims, who comprise as much as 20 percent of 2 million inmates held in U.S. prisons and jail, live in perpetual fear is also conducive to control. Divide and conquer is the name of the game; the fact that it amounts to horrendous violations of human rights does not really interest the prison authorities. ---------- Neve Gordon teaches in the department of politics and government at Ben Gurion University, Israel. ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt@coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ **************************************************************************

Quoting Duncan Frissell (frissell@panix.com):

On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Steve Thompson wrote:

...

That would be my view. After all, mistakes do happen and so we should all be understanding of our and their all-too-human failings which occasionaly lead to minor inconveniences.

Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate."

What could be more obvious? Regards, Steve -- Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc.