Re: Singers jailed for lyrics
"As long as truth is no defense against "hate speech," and "hate speech" includes things which clearly don't involve anyone hating anyone else, "hate speech" is simply a code phrase for suppressing free expression." At worst. At best it's going to boil down to some local enforcement shitheel taking it upon himself to be the arbiter of issues he'll have no ability to comprehend. -TD
From: Eric Cordian <emc@artifact.psychedelic.net> To: cypherpunks@minder.net Subject: Re: Singers jailed for lyrics Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 16:51:38 -0800 (PST)
Michael writes:
Being from Germany I would like to detest that statement.
The German law clearly defines what is hate speech. It is not an easy task as you can see in a six month trial.
It is the outcome of the trial which condemns Germany. THe length of the trial is an unimportant data point.
THe law clearly defines "hate speech" as the communication of any information which might tend to cause people to be displeased with a particular religious or ethnic group, whether or not the information is true.
People in Germany have been jailed under the "hate speech" laws for simply suggesting in written editorials that the Jewish people might act collectively in their own enlightened self-interest.
As long as truth is no defense against "hate speech," and "hate speech" includes things which clearly don't involve anyone hating anyone else, "hnate speech" is simply a code phrase for suppressing free expression.
Certain symbols (e.g. Swastika) are forbidden as well. And I would like to add that most of these laws were made up by the allies (read US and Britain).
Yes, the Allies have done an excellent job of redirecting German jackbooted obnoxiousness back at the German people. Do you have a point here?
There is no "ultimate" free speech as the US promises, but let's be serious here for a moment: The US is not as free as people like to think.
The US isn't free at all. However, most US citizens support freedom to have opinions and to express them. Germans have to ask their government for permission to think. Most Germans think this is a good thing, by the way.
-- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 27-Dec-03, at 10:31 PM, Tyler Durden wrote:
"As long as truth is no defense against "hate speech," and "hate speech" includes things which clearly don't involve anyone hating anyone else, "hate speech" is simply a code phrase for suppressing free expression."
At worst. At best it's going to boil down to some local enforcement shitheel taking it upon himself to be the arbiter of issues he'll have no ability to comprehend.
-TD
It isn't quite that easy. It is not like any cop can just arrest you, drag you away and lock you up because he thinks you did something wrong. The way this would work out is that someone would have to report you (as the offender) to the cops, they in turn would contact the "Verfassungschutz" which then would investigate and if they consider that something is up they can ask a judge for a warrant. In reality though is there was a huge outcry last year in Germany. A rather right wing party called "NDP" as well as several "Wehrsportgruppen" which (according to the Verfassungschutz) were extremely right and attacking the German consitution, were in effect actually LED by informants of the Verfassungschutz. What this means is: They build the monster they were supposed to "protect" us from. The whole thing still isn't over, Politicians from all colours ask loudly if Germany actually still needs the Verfassungsschutz. That the singer got jailed has happened independently from each other, but to think that the majority of people in Germany are just sheep is as wrong as the idea that all of Germans are Nazis. I find it always interesting how people (especially from the US) seem to have prefabricated ideas about how other countries are, but are at the same time so much in denial about their own society that it is just frightening. One huge difference I have noticed between the US and Germany in particular is that discussions LIKE these are still happening in the mainstream press, not only in the "left" or "right" wing propaganda papers. It might be interresting to note BTW, that the german mainstream right is that mainly likes to use the Verfassungschutz, not so much the left who accepts it but is a lot more critical of it than for example the Bavarian Government. That might have to do with the little fact that in the mid 70s and 80s the left was the main target of them (think Rote Armee Fraktion). Michael -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.3 iQA/AwUBP+7e02lCnxcrW2uuEQLQCwCfd+72zy7tRdeg0TVJ9rr4tCW40XUAoMnV GbwK/9fd8UKh55pl/op7SWWF =y2uv -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
participants (2)
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Michael Kalus -
Tyler Durden