FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001350021-2001364909,00.html AMERICAN investigators are considering resorting to harsher interrogation techniques, including torture, after facing a wall of silence from jailed suspected members of Osama bin Ladens al-Qaeda network, according to a report yesterday. More than 150 people who were picked up after September 11 remain in custody, with four men the focus of particularly intense scrutiny. But investigators have found the usual methods have failed to persuade any of them to talk. Options being weighed include truth drugs, pressure tactics and extraditing the suspects to countries whose security services are more used to employing a heavy-handed approach during interrogations. Were into this thing for 35 days and nobody is talking. Frustration has begun to appear, a senior FBI official told The Washington Post. Under US law, evidence extracted using physical pressure or torture is inadmissible in court and interrogators could also face criminal charges for employing such methods. However, investigators suggested that the time might soon come when a truth serum, such as sodium pentothal, would be deemed an acceptable tool for interrogators. The public pressure for results in the war on terrorism might also persuade the FBI to encourage the countries of suspects to seek their extradition, in the knowledge that they could be given a much rougher reception in jails back home. One of the four key suspects is Zacarias Moussaoui, a French Moroccan, suspected of being a twentieth hijacker who failed to make it on board the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. Moussaoui was detained after he acted suspiciously at a Minnesota flying school, requesting lessons in how to steer a plane but not how to take off or land. Both Morocco and France are regarded as having harsher interrogation methods than the United States. The investigators have been disappointed that the usual incentives to break suspects, such as promises of shorter sentences, money, jobs and new lives in the witness protection programme, have failed to break the silence. We are known for humanitarian treatment, so basically we are stuck. Usually there is some incentive, some angle to play, what you can do for them. But it could get to that spot where we could go to pressure . . . where we dont have a choice, and we are probably getting there, an FBI agent involved in the investigation told the paper. The other key suspects being held in New York are Mohammed Jaweed Azmath and Ayub Ali Khan, Indians who were caught the day after the attacks travelling with false passports, craft knives such as those used in the hijackings and hair dye. Nabil Almarabh, a Boston taxi driver alleged to have links to al-Qaeda, is also being held. Some legal experts believe that the US Supreme Court, which has a conservative tilt, might be prepared to support curtailing the civil liberties of prisoners in terrorism cases. However, a warning that torture should be avoided came from Robert Blitzer, a former head of the FBIs counter-terrorism section. He said that the practice goes against every grain in my body. Chances are you are going to get the wrong person and risk damage or killing them. In all, about 800 people have been rounded up since the attacks, most of whom are expected to be found to be innocent. Investigators believe there could be hundreds of people linked to al-Qaeda living in the US, and the Bush Administration has issued a warning that more attacks are probably being planned. Newsweek magazine reports today that Mohammed Atta, the suspected ringleader who died in the first plane to hit the World Trade Centre, had been looking into hitting an aircraft carrier. Investigators retracing his movements found that he visited the huge US Navy base at Norfolk, Virginia, in February and April this year.
FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001350021-2001364909,00.html
AMERICAN investigators are considering resorting to harsher interrogation techniques, including torture, after facing a wall of silence from jailed suspected members of Osama bin Ladens al-Qaeda network, according to a report yesterday. More than 150 people who were picked up after September 11 remain in custody, with four men the focus of particularly intense scrutiny. But investigators have found the usual methods have failed to persuade any of
Options being weighed include truth drugs, pressure tactics and extraditing the suspects to countries whose security services are more used to employing a heavy-handed approach during interrogations. Were into this thing for 35 days and nobody is talking. Frustration has begun to appear, a senior FBI official told The Washington Post. Under US law, evidence extracted using physical pressure or torture is inadmissible in court and interrogators could also face criminal charges for employing such methods. However, investigators suggested that the time might soon come when a truth serum, such as sodium pentothal, would be deemed an acceptable tool for interrogators. The public pressure for results in the war on terrorism might also
One of the four key suspects is Zacarias Moussaoui, a French Moroccan, suspected of being a twentieth hijacker who failed to make it on board the
The investigators have been disappointed that the usual incentives to break suspects, such as promises of shorter sentences, money, jobs and new
We are known for humanitarian treatment, so basically we are stuck. Usually there is some incentive, some angle to play, what you can do for
The other key suspects being held in New York are Mohammed Jaweed Azmath and Ayub Ali Khan, Indians who were caught the day after the attacks
However, a warning that torture should be avoided came from Robert Blitzer, a former head of the FBIs counter-terrorism section. He said that
This appears total BS to me... While I don't doubt some agents do at times conduct their own idea of interrogation I sincerely doubt that the FBI as a whole would be considering this... Jon Beets ----- Original Message ----- From: "Incognito Innominatus" <anonymous@mixmaster.nullify.org> To: <cypherpunks@lne.com> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 10:02 PM Subject: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent them to talk. persuade the FBI to encourage the countries of suspects to seek their extradition, in the knowledge that they could be given a much rougher reception in jails back home. plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. Moussaoui was detained after he acted suspiciously at a Minnesota flying school, requesting lessons in how to steer a plane but not how to take off or land. Both Morocco and France are regarded as having harsher interrogation methods than the United States. lives in the witness protection programme, have failed to break the silence. them. But it could get to that spot where we could go to pressure . . . where we dont have a choice, and we are probably getting there, an FBI agent involved in the investigation told the paper. travelling with false passports, craft knives such as those used in the hijackings and hair dye. Nabil Almarabh, a Boston taxi driver alleged to have links to al-Qaeda, is also being held. Some legal experts believe that the US Supreme Court, which has a conservative tilt, might be prepared to support curtailing the civil liberties of prisoners in terrorism cases. the practice goes against every grain in my body. Chances are you are going to get the wrong person and risk damage or killing them.
In all, about 800 people have been rounded up since the attacks, most of whom are expected to be found to be innocent. Investigators believe there could be hundreds of people linked to al-Qaeda living in the US, and the Bush Administration has issued a warning that more attacks are probably being planned. Newsweek magazine reports today that Mohammed Atta, the suspected ringleader who died in the first plane to hit the World Trade Centre, had been looking into hitting an aircraft carrier. Investigators retracing his movements found that he visited the huge US Navy base at Norfolk, Virginia, in February and April this year.
On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Jon Beets wrote:
Subject: CDR: Re: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
This appears total BS to me... While I don't doubt some agents do at times conduct their own idea of interrogation I sincerely doubt that the FBI as a whole would be considering this...
Jon Beets
In all seriousness, why? I brought this up for discussion today at lunch, with people who I expected would downright disbelieve this, not just doubt it, and was very surprised to hear their reaction, most easily paraphrased as "about time they got around to it". It seems that in todays hyper-"patriotic" environment, this is would be not only an "accepted practice", but even a _preferred_ one by many Amerikans :-( -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:13:51PM -0500, measl@mfn.org wrote:
It seems that in todays hyper-"patriotic" environment, this is would be not only an "accepted practice", but even a _preferred_ one by many Amerikans :-(
Yep. It's going to be a hard political sell to insist that yes, this indicted hijacker who was caught trying to bring down another plane and was captured with detailed plans of a planned nuclear bomb attack in the next three hours shouldn't be, um, strongly encouraged to turn over the passphrase to "nuke-location-gps-coordinates.txt.gpg" -Declan
On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:13:51PM -0500, measl@mfn.org wrote:
It seems that in todays hyper-"patriotic" environment, this is would be not only an "accepted practice", but even a _preferred_ one by many Amerikans :-(
Yep. It's going to be a hard political sell to insist that yes, this indicted hijacker who was caught trying to bring down another plane and was captured with detailed plans of a planned nuclear bomb attack in the next three hours shouldn't be, um, strongly encouraged to turn over the passphrase to "nuke-location-gps-coordinates.txt.gpg"
What's _really_ scary is that it's a hard sell for Osama-bin-College-Student who is caught with nothing more than a parking ticket and a less-than-American style of clothing. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------
Well hell in those extreme circumstances. But we are hardly at that place yet. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Declan McCullagh" <declan@well.com> To: <measl@mfn.org> Cc: <cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 9:33 PM Subject: CDR: Re: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:13:51PM -0500, measl@mfn.org wrote:
It seems that in todays hyper-"patriotic" environment, this is would be not only an "accepted practice", but even a _preferred_ one by many Amerikans :-(
Yep. It's going to be a hard political sell to insist that yes, this indicted hijacker who was caught trying to bring down another plane and was captured with detailed plans of a planned nuclear bomb attack in the next three hours shouldn't be, um, strongly encouraged to turn over the passphrase to "nuke-location-gps-coordinates.txt.gpg"
-Declan
On Monday, October 22, 2001, at 07:33 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote:
On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:13:51PM -0500, measl@mfn.org wrote:
It seems that in todays hyper-"patriotic" environment, this is would be not only an "accepted practice", but even a _preferred_ one by many Amerikans :-(
Yep. It's going to be a hard political sell to insist that yes, this indicted hijacker who was caught trying to bring down another plane and was captured with detailed plans of a planned nuclear bomb attack in the next three hours shouldn't be, um, strongly encouraged to turn over the passphrase to "nuke-location-gps-coordinates.txt.gpg"
Yes, but this is one of those manufactured, utterly implausible situations. I cannot think of a single instance where a suspect had this kind of knowledge, with this kind of stakes, and with this kind of "next three hours" timetable. Even relaxing each item by a factor of 10...I can't think of any such examples. However, I _can_ think of cases where cops believed a suspect knew the location of a kidnapped child, even someone buried alive a la some of the famous kidnaps of the past. Should torture be used in cases like this? The Israelis routinely torture suspects, as news articles over the past dozen years have reported (confirmed by Israeli intelligence on "60 Minutes"). Of course, this might have something to do with their upcoming problems. Given that the scenario Declan describes is unlikely, how might torture or drugs be used? To go after organized crime, obviously. And drug dealers. And money launderers. And pedophiles. "But if it helps to catch just one terrorist!" If the U.S. abandons the standard that no person shall be compelled to be a witness against himself--something the "truth serum" drugging option would of course imply just as surely as torture would--the end times will be upon us. --Tim May, Corralitos, California Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." --Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.
On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:
If the U.S. abandons the standard that no person shall be compelled to be a witness against himself--something the "truth serum" drugging option would of course imply just as surely as torture would--the end times will be upon us.
I submit that this has already been long abandoned, however, I am more interested at the moment in the "truth serum" premise. My understanding (from questioning on this topic in the distant past with an MD/"shrink") is that the sodium thiopental/pentobarbital/etc. "truth serum" is an urban legend. He was quite specific that the drug was a definite aid to relaxing patients, and "allowing" them to go where they _wanted_ to (psychiatrically speaking) with much less "work", but that "pentothal interviews" were very much not free-will altering devices. At the risk of being told to go google (which I guess I'll do in a moment), does anyone have any information either contrary to this, or possibly of another "truth serum" that would fit the stated bill? I really suspect this truth serum business is just psywar in action... -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------
-- On 22 Oct 2001, at 23:05, measl@mfn.org wrote:
My understanding (from questioning on this topic in the distant past with an MD/"shrink") is that the sodium thiopental/pentobarbital/etc. "truth serum" is an urban legend. He was quite specific that the drug was a definite aid to relaxing patients, and "allowing" them to go where they _wanted_ to (psychiatrically speaking) with much less "work", but that "pentothal interviews" were very much not free-will altering devices.
In vino veritas. People will confess under mere psychological pressure even when sober, sometimes to terrible crimes that they have not committed. A wide variety of drugs, most famously alcohol, will make them even more talkative, though less coherent and intelligible. Most of the date rape drugs are also highly effective truth serums, most of them considerably more effective even than alcohol. Jimson weed can get anyone to talk with alarming frankness, though what they say may not make a lot of sense, or have any reliable connection to reality. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG OV/M+pPz395rYGZdJAWC2jLQTsBD3fd0KW7/Aptz 4zUt5zqlpjnRPDD27tfczySh5sIhOm2VMSIQaItmW
On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:50:01PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
Yes, but this is one of those manufactured, utterly implausible situations. I cannot think of a single instance where a suspect had this kind of knowledge, with this kind of stakes, and with this kind of "next three hours" timetable. Even relaxing each item by a factor of 10...I can't think of any such examples.
Neither can I. My intention was not to suggest that it's acceptable to rip out the accused's toenails, slowly, but to suggest that this is the kind of scenario that we may hear politicians talking about in short order. -Declan
At 10:33 PM 10/22/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:13:51PM -0500, measl@mfn.org wrote:
It seems that in todays hyper-"patriotic" environment, this is would be not only an "accepted practice", but even a _preferred_ one by many Amerikans :-(
Yep. It's going to be a hard political sell to insist that yes, this indicted hijacker who was caught trying to bring down another plane and was captured with detailed plans of a planned nuclear bomb attack in the next three hours shouldn't be, um, strongly encouraged to turn over the passphrase to "nuke-location-gps-coordinates.txt.gpg"
Two random late night thoughts: 1. Since death in combat is far more heroic [1] to these folks than it is to Americans, the torturers will have to be careful. Three hours is not much time to break a person, and cruder torture methods are fatal. 2. Cyanide pills were standard issue for folks dropped behind enemy lines in WWII (see _Between Silk & Cyanide_). [1] Though one wonders whether psyops -mutilation of corpse and cliched pig games- would help. One last random thought: since moslems don't drink, they may not handle their pentothal too well. [Na Pentothol is a fast acting barbituate; barbies act very similarly to ethanol.] However, those methods aren't too reliable and again that 3 hours would be a real problem...
David Honig wrote:
1. Since death in combat is far more heroic [1] to these folks than it is to Americans, the torturers will have to be careful. ... [1] Though one wonders whether psyops -mutilation of corpse and cliched pig games- would help.
So, the torturers should get rid of their pliers and jumper cables, and instead get a dozen boars and a bottle of Viagra? Here's a religious question: If a devout Moslem prepares himself for a martyr's death [1] but is caught by the cops before his act and is buggered to death by a dozen pigs [2] on Viagra, does he still go to heaven? Does it matter if he spills the beans first or if he keeps silent until death? [1] Setting aside questions of whether killing innocents really gives you an express pass to heaven. [2] Four-footed pigs, I mean, not policemen. -- Steve Furlong Computer Condottiere Have GNU, Will Travel 617-670-3793 "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato
At 09:04 PM 10/22/01 -0500, Jon Beets wrote:
This appears total BS to me... While I don't doubt some agents do at times conduct their own idea of interrogation I sincerely doubt that the FBI as a whole would be considering this...
Jon Beets
"all the normalities of the social contract are abandoned in war" Jack Valenti MPAA pres, in LATimes on Kerry's war crimes
At 9:04 PM -0500 10/22/01, Jon Beets wrote:
This appears total BS to me... While I don't doubt some agents do at times conduct their own idea of interrogation I sincerely doubt that the FBI as a whole would be considering this...
Jon Beets
And you base your doubts on what? The FBI's sterling track record? Regards, Matt- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt@coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ **************************************************************************
On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:04:44PM -0500, Jon Beets wrote:
This appears total BS to me... While I don't doubt some agents do at times conduct their own idea of interrogation I sincerely doubt that the FBI as a whole would be considering this...
Yes, journalists like those at the Times and the Washington Post are commonly in the habit of fabricating interviews. Um, no. Such a thing may of course happen -- remember that Pulitzer-winner a while back -- but when you weigh it against the likelihood of an FBI trial balloon, all becomes clear. -Declan
participants (10)
-
David Honig -
Declan McCullagh -
Incognito Innominatus -
jamesd＠echeque.com -
Jon Beets -
Jonathan Fateley -
Matthew Gaylor -
measl＠mfn.org -
Steve Furlong -
Tim May