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A year and a half ago I read one of the most interesting, interdisciplinary books I've ever read, "Noah's Flood," by Ryan and Pitman. Not a religious book, but a book combining oceanography, geology, fish biology, pottery studies, DNA analysis, mythology, and several other fields. The big news today was the announcement that human habitation remains have been found where the Ryan and Pitman theory predicted. This has profound significance for our culture, for understanding the spread of Indo-European language, and for the apparent "diaspora" happening at around this time. (It would not surprise me if the earliest known agricultural implements are found in the next few years.) This is not a Cypherpunks topic, but I believe I've mentioned the Ryan and Pitman book here before. And it shows how science is done. To quote one of the many stories appearing today: Wednesday September 13 3:00 AM ET New Evidence of Great Flood Found By RANDOLPH E. SCHMID, Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON (AP) - The first evidence that humans lived in an area now covered by the Black Sea - perhaps inundated by the biblical flood - has been found by a team of explorers. ``Artifacts at the site are clearly well preserved, with carved wooden beams, wooden branches and stone tools,'' lead researcher Robert Ballard said. ... Columbia University researchers William Ryan and Walter Pittman speculated in their 1997 book ``Noah's Flood'' that when the European glaciers melted, about 7,000 years ago, the Mediterranean Sea overflowed into what was then a smaller freshwater lake to create the Black Sea. Last year Ballard found indications of an ancient coastline miles out from the current Black Sea coast. The new discovery provides evidence that people once lived in that now inundated region. (end excerpt) -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments.
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At 1:19 PM -0700 on 9/13/00, Tim May wrote:
The big news today was the announcement that human habitation remains have been found where the Ryan and Pitman theory predicted.
Evidently, there's oceanographic evidence that the Mediterranean itself was dry at one time, with an equivalent event (well of type, it was by definition, larger) at Gibraltar, though, it seems to me that it was sometime very much closer to the last ice age than the events described in today's news. There was some discussion at the time that *that* was the cause of the flood myth, but this recent discovery is clearly a much more memorable event, in terms of human history and especially its closer proximity to the advent of writing. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
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On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
Evidently, there's oceanographic evidence that the Mediterranean itself was dry at one time, with an equivalent event (well of type, it was by definition, larger) at Gibraltar, though, it seems to me that it was sometime very much closer to the last ice age than the events described in today's news.
Actualy it's been dry several times. The Med is in a 'salinity crisis'. The most recent time the Atlantic broke through at Gibralter there was a waterfall that was several thousand feet high. The mean level of the Med is lower even today than the Atlantic with a net flow into the Med. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
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On Thursday, 14 Sep 2000 at 20:12, Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> wrote:
On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
Evidently, there's oceanographic evidence that the Mediterranean itself was dry at one time,
The most recent time the Atlantic broke through at Gibralter there was a waterfall that was several thousand feet high.
This is described in detail in "Many Colored Land" by Julian May (no relation.) Are you sure you haven't confused fact with fiction, Jim?
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On Sat, 16 Sep 2000, Ralph Seberry wrote:
This is described in detail in "Many Colored Land" by Julian May (no relation.) Are you sure you haven't confused fact with fiction, Jim?
Yes. I am sure they are not confused. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
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At 4:45 PM -0400 9/14/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
At 1:19 PM -0700 on 9/13/00, Tim May wrote:
The big news today was the announcement that human habitation remains have been found where the Ryan and Pitman theory predicted.
Evidently, there's oceanographic evidence that the Mediterranean itself was dry at one time, with an equivalent event (well of type, it was by definition, larger) at Gibraltar, though, it seems to me that it was sometime very much closer to the last ice age than the events described in today's news.
It's well-established that the Mediterranean inundation was more than 10 million years ago. Apples and oranges, archaeologically or anthropologically speaking. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments.
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At 8:57 PM -0700 on 9/14/00, Tim May wrote:
the Mediterranean inundation was more than 10 million years ago.
Oh, well. Here I thought it was closer than that, historically. I do remember that there were salt pans on the floor of the Med that only could have gotten there if it was dry down there once, but I didn't realize that it was 10 million years ago, which is several times as far back most people could say we were even human... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
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On Fri, 15 Sep 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
I do remember that there were salt pans on the floor of the Med that only could have gotten there if it was dry down there once, but I didn't realize that it was 10 million years ago, which is several times as far back most people could say we were even human...
'People' have only been around about a half a million years (depending on how stringent one is in defining human). We're recent(!)hairless apes. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
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On Fri, 15 Sep 2000, Jim Choate wrote:
On Fri, 15 Sep 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
'People' have only been around about a half a million years (depending on how stringent one is in defining human).
We're recent(!)hairless apes.
My opinion is even more stringent than that. The archaeological record shows human-like anatomy starting about half a million years ago, but no evidence of symbolic thought or individual experimentation with / invention of tools prior to about the year -38K. Up to that point, you've just got a few classical tools, made the same way generation after generation after generation, and after that point you've suddenly got cave paintings, tools made out of unfamiliar materials, tools made for new purposes, people buried with grave goods (proof that someone at least thought *something* about death), sculptures of animals and carvings that could not serve as tools (and thus are probably classifiable as art), etc. Something fundamental changed only 40,000 years ago, and even though there have been *anatomically* modern humans for about a half million years, I pretty strongly suspect that there weren't *mentally* modern humans until that change. It may have been the development of language that made the difference. Ray
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-- At 05:29 PM 9/15/2000 -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote:
My opinion is even more stringent than that. The archaeological record shows human-like anatomy starting about half a million years ago, but no evidence of symbolic thought or individual experimentation with / invention of tools prior to about the year -38K.
Up to that point, you've just got a few classical tools, made the same way generation after generation after generation, and after that point you've suddenly got cave paintings, tools made out of unfamiliar materials, tools made for new purposes, people buried with grave goods (proof that someone at least thought *something* about death), sculptures of animals and carvings that could not serve as tools (and thus are probably classifiable as art), etc.
This is probably a cultural change, rather than a change in intellectual capability. The tasmanian aborigines produced no art, did not bury their dead, and their technology steadily regressed to earlier stone age levels, even though they were racially the same as the mainland aboriginals. My guess would be that when the population grew to levels where they started to press one each other, they found it necessary to make use of specialist in tool making, specialists in obtaining rare and valuable raw materials, and most importantly, religious and cultural specialists who maintained relationships, and therefore peace, between widely scattered bands. Those artworks that survived were placed deep underground, where they could only be seen with extreme difficulty. Presumably they were there for religious reasons. I would guess that in order to promote peace between widely scattered bands, religious specialists made some deep cavern a place of pilgrimage, and then, like the Pope decorating the Sistine chapel, hired artists to make it more impressive. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG THW+18SM9m8QnlUgYohmtxCOFcwAVSUSYTs/u7sC 4t0aDLUkmJVFLKMqrpdeIEbHo1E/nlgnbtB6LWI8v
participants (7)
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James A. Donald
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Jim Choate
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Jim Choate
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R. A. Hettinga
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Ralph Seberry
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Ray Dillinger
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Tim May