Jim, The bloke with the extra ventilation notwithstanding, with an open OS and open applications it seems easy to do pretty much whatever you want with disk data and logs regardless of what the letter of the law says. Electronic data is so malleable that its use as evidence seems questionable to begin with. It's not like a gun or a car which has a physical presence and cannot be duplicated or altered *quite* as readily as bits. ( Though I would expect some coarse grit emery run down the barrel and some random prick punch action on the bolt might do wonders for ballistic analysis ). This whole mess of communications and data privacy and copyright will be plaguing us for a long time and the most likely outcome is authoritarian legislation. Unless some Bush SC appointees are libertarians. Seem pretty likely? Mike
On Tue, 5 Dec 2000 mmotyka@lsil.com wrote:
The bloke with the extra ventilation notwithstanding, with an open OS and open applications it seems easy to do pretty much whatever you want with disk data and logs regardless of what the letter of the law says.
Agreed, but also irrelevant.
Electronic data is so malleable that its use as evidence seems questionable to begin with. It's not like a gun or a car which has a physical presence and cannot be duplicated or altered *quite* as readily as bits.
This makes them more dangerous and likely to be the center of controversy. As to altering bits, depends on what bits where you are talking off. Not all bits are equal.
for ballistic analysis ). This whole mess of communications and data privacy and copyright will be plaguing us for a long time and the most likely outcome is authoritarian legislation.
I believe the long term (say 100 to 250 years) will be elimination of copyright, trademark, and IP in general. It will be the consequence of a growing 'Yeah, but what have you done for me today?' attitude. I believe the Open Source movement is one component. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
At 11:44 PM 12/5/00 -0500, mmotyka@lsil.com wrote:
( Though I would expect some coarse grit emery run down the barrel and some random prick punch action on the bolt might do wonders for ballistic analysis ).
Extra barrels are not so expensive or hard to obtain that the pro can't afford to treat them as disposable.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 06 December 2000 11:11, David Honig wrote:
At 11:44 PM 12/5/00 -0500, mmotyka@lsil.com wrote:
( Though I would expect some coarse grit emery run down the barrel and some random prick punch action on the bolt might do wonders for ballistic analysis ).
Extra barrels are not so expensive or hard to obtain that the pro can't afford to treat them as disposable.
Maybe not, but the tools used to remove the barrel/s can be traced by teeth marks and other metal to metal contact. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6LqSDaffsYFTAgB4RAlllAKCG8POLyvUdk0AaBvjTy0buyuJRSQCgoHP1 FfWTTSrHYz+2+r1S8iWy5fg= =ZGnz -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
At 3:41 PM -0500 12/6/00, Russ K wrote:
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On Wednesday 06 December 2000 11:11, David Honig wrote:
At 11:44 PM 12/5/00 -0500, mmotyka@lsil.com wrote:
( Though I would expect some coarse grit emery run down the barrel and some random prick punch action on the bolt might do wonders for ballistic analysis ).
Extra barrels are not so expensive or hard to obtain that the pro can't afford to treat them as disposable.
Maybe not, but the tools used to remove the barrel/s can be traced by teeth marks and other metal to metal contact.
I can't believe I'm reading something so inane. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.)
There are numerous makes of weapons that do not require tools to change the barrel. Glock pistol barrels can be changed in about 20 seconds with no tools, Desert Eagle pistol barrels in about 5 seconds, and Winchester 1300 shotgun barrels in about 30 seconds. If you want to sanitize a non-removable barrel, fire-lap it. This involves firing bullets embedded with successively finer abrasive grits down the barrel, which also increases accuracy and reduces fouling. Bead blasting, careful sanding, or replacement of the firing pin ejector, and extractor will sanitize marks made on the cartridge case, or better yet, attach a bag to either the gun or your firing hand to catch ejected empties before they get left behind as evidence. -----Original Message----- From: Russ K [mailto:rkeni@cyou.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 12:42 PM To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com Subject: Re: CDR: Re: Data Logs -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 06 December 2000 11:11, David Honig wrote:
At 11:44 PM 12/5/00 -0500, mmotyka@lsil.com wrote:
( Though I would expect some coarse grit emery run down the barrel and some random prick punch action on the bolt might do wonders for ballistic analysis ).
Extra barrels are not so expensive or hard to obtain that the pro can't afford to treat them as disposable.
Maybe not, but the tools used to remove the barrel/s can be traced by teeth marks and other metal to metal contact. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6LqSDaffsYFTAgB4RAlllAKCG8POLyvUdk0AaBvjTy0buyuJRSQCgoHP1 FfWTTSrHYz+2+r1S8iWy5fg= =ZGnz -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Russ K wrote:
Maybe not, but the tools used to remove the barrel/s can be traced by teeth marks and other metal to metal contact.
So the moral of the story is... If you want to destroy the potential barrel you'll need to: - Have replacement barrels purchased in a non-traceable manner. - Have some mechanism to brush or scratch the inside of the barrel, - Apply a corrosive and allow it to thin the barrel significantly. - Then twist barrel and heat until red hot. - Then handle with non-metallic tools only until discarded. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Russ K wrote:
Maybe not, but the tools used to remove the barrel/s can be traced by teeth marks and other metal to metal contact.
So the moral of the story is...
If you want to destroy the potential barrel you'll need to:
- Have replacement barrels purchased in a non-traceable manner.
Why? There are many reasons to have spare barrels. Think "Squib load".
- Have some mechanism to brush or scratch the inside of the barrel, - Apply a corrosive and allow it to thin the barrel significantly. - Then twist barrel and heat until red hot. - Then handle with non-metallic tools only until discarded.
Nonsense. The forensic tests on bullets/firearms are based on percentage matches. You simply need to change *slightly* the "finger print" of the barrel and firing pin. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow
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On Wednesday 06 December 2000 11:11, David Honig wrote:
At 11:44 PM 12/5/00 -0500, mmotyka@lsil.com wrote:
( Though I would expect some coarse grit emery run down the barrel and some random prick punch action on the bolt might do wonders for ballistic analysis ).
Extra barrels are not so expensive or hard to obtain that the pro can't afford to treat them as disposable.
Maybe not, but the tools used to remove the barrel/s can be traced by teeth marks and other metal to metal contact.
Most pistol barrels are removable without tools. Besides, two or three hundred rounds down the barrel should be enough to change it's forensics. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow
participants (7)
-
David Honig -
Jim Choate -
Jonathan Wienke -
mmotyka＠lsil.com -
petro -
Russ K -
Tim May