I think it's unclear, perhaps even intentionally ambiguous. One way of reading the executive order (that section of it, at least) is that it preserves the ability of the DoD to try members of the military in a different form of tribunal that might have more procedural safeguards, and that it preserves the authority of civilian courts. That is the more, um, benign interpretation. The other interpretation is that Bush does not want to limit the power of the military to try civilian U.S. citizens in some cases, subject to "lawful authority." The thing is, though, that if Bush intends to try the second approach, focusing on that paragraph is maybe misguided: If he's daring enough to do it without explicit Congressional sanction, then he can just sign another exeucitve order. Only take him a few minutes to write one and scribble his signature. -Declan http://www.politechbot.com/p-02797.html On Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 11:14:25PM -0500, Peter Capelli wrote:

Okay, here's a question from a 'stupid fuck'; Did *you* read the order? Check out Section 7 (a) (3):

Sec. 7. Relationship to Other Law and Forums.

(a) Nothing in this order shall be construed to --

(1) authorize the disclosure of state secrets to any person not otherwise authorized to have access to them; (2) limit the authority of the President as Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces or the power of the President to grant reprieves and pardons; or

(3) limit the lawful authority of the Secretary of Defense, any military commander, or any other officer or agent of the United States or of any State to detain or try any person who is not an individual subject to this order.

Now I am not a lawyer, but doesn't that mean that this can be applied to anyone?

-p ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anonymous" To: Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 3:24 PM Subject: Re: Crypto Terrorists to be Tried in Military Tribunal

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Jei writes:

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I thought this would be relevant to the list members.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/11/20011113-27.html

http://cryptome.org/pmo111301.htm

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/11/13/193921.shtml

And what is a Crypto Terrorist, you ask? Of course, it is someone who hides things with cryptography, e.g. a potential Cyber Terrorist. ;-P

At 9:07 PM -0500 11/14/01, Andrew C. Greenberg wrote:

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I saw the part in article III about one supreme court and subsidiary courts. Sorry, where, exactly, does it say that military tribunals have jurisdiction over civilians?

Read the fucking order at cryptome:

Detention, Treatment, and Trial of Certain Non-Citizens in the War Against Terrorism

See that? "Non-Citizens", you stupid fucks! What a barrel of retards we've got around here.

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"Greg" == Greg Broiles writes:

Greg> At 11:14 PM 11/18/2001 -0500, Peter Capelli wrote: >> Okay, here's a question from a 'stupid fuck'; Did *you* read the order? >> Check out Section 7 (a) (3): >> >> Sec. 7. Relationship to Other Law and Forums. >> >> (a) Nothing in this order shall be construed to -- >> >> (1) authorize the disclosure of state secrets to any person not otherwise >> authorized to have access to them; >> (2) limit the authority of the President as Commander in Chief of the Armed >> Forces or the power of the President to grant reprieves and pardons; or >> >> (3) limit the lawful authority of the Secretary of Defense, any military >> commander, or any other officer or agent of the United States or of any >> State to detain or try any person who is not an individual subject to this >> order. >> >> >> Now I am not a lawyer, but doesn't that mean that this can be applied to >> anyone? Greg> No, it means it's not meant to alter people's pre-existing status vis-a-vis Greg> detentions or trials; if they didn't include a clause like that, then Greg> people would argue that the executive order didn't just add to existing Greg> law, but replaced it, such that previously possible prosecutions would no Greg> longer be possible since they weren't explicitly permitted in the EO. Or, to put it in clear laymen's terms: it means this order only gives them *more* rights, it doesn't take any rights away from LEOs/the govermin'. Bye, J -- Jürgen A. Erhard (juergen.erhard@gmx.net, jae@users.sf.net) MARS http://mars.jerhard.org The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned. -- Bruce Ediger