-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 From: "Faustine" <faustine@lokmail.net> Marc wrote:

My point was that without constitutional protection, it would be

...

infinitely easier for innocent people and arbitrarily-determined thought -criminal "enemies of the state" to be shot right along with the real criminals. In America as it exists today, the Constitution is the only thing' that stands in the way of full-scale repression in the name of "security". Be careful what you wish for, that's all.

I bet FBI agents have nightmares. At least those involved in the Waco and Ruby Ridge cases. I think they were unable to sleep at night, dreaming of a piece of paper jumping between them and their victims and threatening to... whatever.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them did have nightmares about the Constitution. Not as a piece of paper dancing around on Mickey Mouse legs or whatever the hell you were getting at, but as an idea representing the rule of law that would lead to them being jailed for murder. Which unfortunately never happened, but so it goes.

Has anyone EVER saw the Constitution stand in any place, let alone "in the way of full-scale represion"? People with guns do that, not paper. Why do I have to repeat something this obvious?

(No, "it was a metaphor" doesn't cut it. It was a dumb metaphor. Next time you're arguing something, get rid of metaphors. As an exercise, try rephrasing what you said above without using any. Forget about "constitutional protection" or "Constitution standing in the way". Try to make sense.)

I'm sure anyone who speaks English as a first language didn't find it the least bit odd or have any problem at all understanding such a common expression. It's an idiom, not a metaphor. Your English is generally excellent, but you might want to have another look at an online ESL dictionary of idiomatic usage if you have time. It might make things a little easier for you around here. The language issue probably explains why you missed my original point as well. No hard feelings; I'd rather talk about the issues than quibble over this sort of thing anyday. I'm sure that if I were trying to do this in French or German instead, I'd be having the same sort of problems myself. So here's hoping miscommunication doesn't -->stand in the way of<-- getting on with a perfectly interesting thread. ;) ~Faustine. *** He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. - --Thomas Paine -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 (C) 1997-1999 Network Associates, Inc. and its affiliated companies. (Diffie-Helman/DSS-only version) iQA/AwUBPB5Mq/g5Tuca7bfvEQLysQCaAg3W3hccGfm96DIAz1GMC1qbW14AoP58 XnRTX/kJ+e9nN6ccqd+9F8X3 =HlQF -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----